Before I worked here, I wondered if HM Land Registry was full of clerical staff pushing piles of paperwork around, like a scene from Terry Gilliam’s ‘Brazil’.
I was happy to discover that HM Land Registry is actually very forward-looking and is using digital technology to transform how land registration works.
I think some of our customers may have a similarly false impression though. They are often disappointed to learn that we don’t have their original title deeds, stored in a library of dusty ledgers!
So, what are title deeds, where are they kept, and do you need them?
What are title deeds?
Title deeds are paper documents showing the chain of ownership for land and property. They can include:
- conveyances
- contracts for sale
- wills
- mortgages
- leases
Where are my title deeds?
HM Land Registry records are digital, so we don’t store paper title deeds.
Generally, we only have the original title deeds when land or property is registered for the first time, as we need them to prepare the register. We create scanned copies of some deeds and then return all the original title deeds to whoever lodged them. This is usually the solicitor or conveyancer acting on behalf of the buyer.
So, if you’re trying to track down your original deeds, they could be with the solicitor who acted for you when you bought the property, or possibly with your mortgage company if you have a mortgage.
If the property was already registered when you bought it, the seller may not have handed over the original deeds. There’s no requirement for them to do so. Tracing the original deeds for a property that has been bought and sold many times is likely to be an impossible task.
If you want to see a scanned copy of the deeds that we have on file, start by searching our property information and finding your property’s title number. If the register refers to deeds being filed, we should have copies. You can then get a copy of your deeds.
Do I need my title deeds?
Our Land Register is the definitive record of land and property ownership in England and Wales. So, if your property is registered with us, you don’t need the deeds to confirm your ownership. It’s a good idea to keep the original deeds though, as they can hold extra information, about legal boundaries or who the previous owner was, for example.
If your property isn’t on the register and you choose to apply for first registration, you'll need to submit the original deeds to us. If your deeds have been lost or destroyed, it can make things more complicated, so I’d always recommend keeping them in a safe place.
755 comments
Comment by Donald Gray posted on
Many lenders won't hold mortgage deeds for residential properties and expect the client or solicitor to hold them so I think your comments about deeds being held by a mortgage company is generally incorrect.
Also one other reason to hold title deeds is to help to identify who might have the benefit of an easement or a restrictive covenant. I have seen many entries which recite the terms of a transfer or conveyance which refer to "retained land" but there is nothing on the face of the register to tell you where the retained land might be. Sometimes you can do this by obtaining adjoinging titles but you can imagine how expensive and time consuming that can be when there have been many sales such as a residentiasl estate or in an urban area.
Comment by Frank Ramsay posted on
Thanks for your comments, Donald. I agree that it is more likely for the deeds to be held by a solicitor or conveyancer. I mentioned mortgage companies because I wanted to present all the options available to somebody trying to track down their deeds.
I also agree that if you have your paper deeds, you should keep them to be able to check any additional information. I do state this, but don’t mention every reason for wanting to keep them, as this is a general guide.
Comment by Zaeem posted on
That is incorrect. Some lenders may store title deeds.
Comment by Frank Ramsay posted on
Hello Zaeem, I clearly state in the blog that your title deeds may be "with your mortgage company, if you have a mortgage". I agreed with Donald that it was less likely for them to held by lenders, though. Hope this is clear.
Comment by Eliza posted on
But you are right Frank - mine were with my mortgage company! Perhaps it's because the mortgage was taken out a long time ago. Lucky the bank was still around and found them.
Comment by Liz Bailey posted on
Last year we lost a sale because we didn't have a signed copy of our title deeds, we have a copy but for some reason it's not signed. Land registry have no record but have copies of all other relevant deeds. Our mortgage lender didn't have the title deeds or our solicitor at the time of sale didn't either. I have checked with both. When we tried to sell last year our then solicitor offered an indemnity insurance but this was not accepted. How can we right this situation so that we don't have the same problem when we next try to move? Our neighbours all have signed copies. We moved into our house in 1999. It was then a new build.
Comment by AdamH posted on
Liz - I assume by 'title deeds' you mean a specific deed/document which ahs been lost. If so the only way to right that sistuaiton is to find it or a certified copy. The alternative can be idemnity insurance but that all depends on the view of the buyer/their solicitor as to whther they accept that as being sufficient to negate the risk.
Comment by liz posted on
Surely if all other documents/deeds are held by land registry, which they are, then should that not be enough evidence that the house is our property. I really can't see what the problem is. Perhaps you could explain it to me.
I was under the impression that a house could only be bought legally if land registry has all the documents in the first place. So why do you not have a copy of our title deeds when you have everything else?
Comment by AdamH posted on
Liz - if the property is registered then that confirms the ownership. Clearly whichever deed you are referring to is seen as also being important for your buyer but they/your solicitor will need to explain it for you.
When the new build was sold and then registered you will have submitted the evidence to support that purchase, namely proof that the seller owned it and that they had transferred it to you. We then create the registered title whcih you and buyers would then rely on. I'm guessing here, as you have not specified what is missing, that a copy of the Transfer between you and the developer is missing and this is the key document the buyers want to see. If that is the case and we don't have a copy then the only options are to try the developer or check your own paperwork to see if you had a copy and you kept it. If a copy can't be found then the indemnity option may be a way forward. But whether the buyer accepts that or not is entirely up to them. Another buyer may be quite happy to proceed with indemnity insurance but veyr much a choice for individual buyers and their solicitor.
Comment by sue posted on
I am the sole owner of my house and I am selling it to the person with whom I was once joint-owner 15 years ago. I have all the deeds of the house from the various transfers on land, through to the transfer between one builder and another, to the first build, epitome of title and conveyance to the first owner of the property. When we purchased in 2001 there was no issue with the conveyance, when ownership was transferred to me as a sole owner there were no problems. Now, just as we are about to exchange contracts, my buyers conveyancers want to impose indemnity insurance as they claim documents are missing from the deeds. One of the conveyances they have asked for sight of simply does not, nor could not have existed, on the date they claim. I have provided all the documentation to prove this. They've refused to give me the evidence upon which they based the request, are asking for yet more documentation, and asking the seller, again for indemnity insurance, saying that if he doesn't take it, his mortgage provider might ask for it. My buyer has seen all the deeds, They used to be, jointly, his deeds too. We are sitting looking at them now. What can we do ? How can we prove that an historic transfer of ownership did not take place when all the evidence we have proves it could not.
Comment by AdamH posted on
Sue - I'm afraid we cannot advise or assist you as the issues being raised/faced are part of the conveyancing process and discussions between each party and their conveyancers.
Comment by Jason posted on
Apologies for jumping on this thread, not sure how else to ask a question. We’ve just paid the mortgage off and got a copy of the (not updated) property register. We don’t have something without the lenders name on or a title plan. Is this correct. I had heard sometimes lenders forget to release their interest (lien?)
Comment by AdamH posted on
Jason - you usually have to wait for them to remove it, say 2 weeks after being told.
This is a blog and not a forum so you can only add comments. You can’t start a thread.
Comment by Jason posted on
Thanks for the quick response. It’s been about three weeks, so I guess it’s been done. Just was expecting something a bit more substantial through the post. I may contact l reg via main number to check. Thanks again.
Comment by AdamH posted on
Jason - one a title is registered there is nothing substantial as the details are held electronically. We don't check for you as you should rely on your lender to confirm. As and when you or anyone else needs to prove ownership or what is registered you get a new copy online or by post as appropriate
Comment by Chris posted on
Hi sorry if is not directly linked but don’t know how to start my own blog/thread. I am buying a lease hold flat and the deeds or copy that has been sent can not be read ! I have been told that this error is likely to have occurred at the Land Registry. Is this likely be true and if this is correct what can I do without a lease that’s legible ? Will this cause issues moving forward when selling?
Comment by AdamH posted on
Chris - responsibility for the lease rests with the landlord/tenant;freeholder/leaseholder and not with ourselves. When a lease is granted each party has an original and a counterpart, each executed by the other. When a lease is registered we will invariably retain a copy and if we are going back several years then this will have been a copy supplied at the time of registration. The quality can be poor and can deteriorate and this can effect the end product when scanned into our systems as they are now. However that does not escape the basic tenet that it is the landlord/tenant;freeholder/leaseholder who should have a decent original.
If the lease is illegible and the other party does not have a suitable original or own copy then you may wish to consider having a new lease drawn up to replace it. That would then be registered and the old leased determined and closed down. If a buyer can't read their lease then it may cause issues depending on their legal advice as well as their own view. When you bought for example the same issue will have arisen.
From our perspective we can't suddenly produce a legible lease if all we have is the illegible copy. If the other party has a decent copy/counterpart then that should be submitted. If not then check with your solicitor as to options and next steps
Comment by Chris posted on
Adam, first of all thanks for your prompt reply. If I’m right in what you are saying the actual owner of the leases should have a copy in the event that the purchaser has lost their copy or in my case being supplied with one that cannot be read. If the person owning the leases should have a copy then there should be no need to replace a lease. Would indemnity insurance cover an illegible lease ?
Comment by AdamH posted on
Chris - correct. Indemnity insurance is a 'modern' way of dealing with areas of risk but very much one to speak to your conveyancer about. I suspect, but would not know, that all depends on whether the whole thing is illegible or simply part(s)
Comment by Mr devine posted on
My son who’s name is the same as mine has sold my house without my permission ,it’s a second house I own which he has been living in ,
Comment by Jackie steer posted on
I have the land registers of my house but don’t recall getting the deeds where do I go pls
Comment by AdamH posted on
Jackie - have a read of the article and track back as appropriate with your solicitor or bank. If you bought in the last 20 years you may never have received any deeds from your seller either so you may be looking for something that no longer exists or which can be traced
Comment by Lesley posted on
My mother sadly died a few weeks ago and I am her named executor. I am guessing I will need to obtain a copy of the title deeds so that her house can be sold and pass to new owners?
Is there anything I need to do specifically in regard to the deeds? I can not find any copies in her house.
Many thanks
Comment by ianflowers posted on
Lesley - I am sorry to hear of your loss. Please see our general guidance which explains the options in the case of a sole surviving owner passing away once probate has been granted - https://www.gov.uk/update-property-records-someone-dies . As mentioned in that guidance, the first step will be to check that the property is registered with us. If it is, the paper deeds will not be required to update the title register in respect of the ownership.
Comment by Forbes Watson posted on
Just searching how long title deeds would come through from my lender, the house was paid off at the end of May and was told by the call centre advisor that these would be sent to myself of sent to the lender for pick up which I went for , they also told me that these would be sent by the end of June, I went into the lender this morning to ask about them and they told me it would be about 2 months before they are release as they have to be sent to the land register and other to be recorded, so the call centre advisor was wrong, no wonder she said this as she spoke with a foreign language, but you would think that these advisors in the Mortgage Team would be trained correctly.
Comment by ianflowers posted on
Donald - If you're happy to give your property address we can check the position with us.
Comment by JohnN posted on
Ian, I have just 'stumbled' across these blogs and the various responses having found myself in this situation: mother is elderly and has lived in the property that I know she and my father owned ( mortgaged and fully paid up) since 1952. The local council have offered some work to adapt her bathroom, which is great, but the wish to see the deeds as proof of ownership before proceeding. Mum had the deeds kept in HSBC until 2014 ( she has bank statments showing the annual fee) but was then asked by the bank to collect them. Now we can't find them, so far. And there appears to be a void in the Registry records, it's as if the house doesn't exist. What should we do ?
Comment by AdamH posted on
JohnN - the issue you have is that the property is unregistered so the proof of ownership rests with the deeds, which cannot now be located. It is unregistered as they bought before it was compulsory to register the property/purchase and it has not changed hands since.
If you are unable to locate the deeds our Practice Guide 2 explains what will be required to register it https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/first-registration-of-title-where-deeds-have-been-lost-or-destroyed
Comment by Sonja Gaffer posted on
my deeds were with my building society, so the comment is fair. i had to pay to get them released when we paid the mortgage off.
Comment by JohnnyW posted on
Thanks for the article,
I do feel that it is an extremely complicated process to try to get hold of the title deeds for a property that I own.
They "may" be with the solicitor who worked on the property purchase for me is vague.
It is labourious for me to fill out the OC2 form - during which I am expected to declare the fee I'm paying - instead of having a simple web form where i can tick boxes. I research the fee and hope that it is something like "Official Documents" for £7. There are other areas of the form which are opaque to my layman's eyes.
It is then implied in the article that I don't really need the title deeds for proof of property ownership, but they could be "nice to have" if you want to hold more information about boundaries etc. Well, it is "nice to have" and I want it.
In all, the Land Registry may well be moving towards a more progressive model of digitisation for proof of ownership, but I very much feel like Sam Lowry trying to deciper just exactly what the heck I need and how to get hold of it....
Comment by AdamH posted on
JohnnyW - I’m sorry that you found the article, wider guidance and process unhelpful.
The article is aimed at original deeds/documents and how important they are whether the property is registered or not. Unfortunately the term ‘title deeds’ is used and defined in different ways and those differences are accentuated depending on the registered/unregistered point.
If your Q is what do I need and how do I get it can you explain what the need relates to?
If I understand what has triggered you reading the article and which property is involved I might b3 able to add some clarity for you?
Comment by JohnnyW posted on
Hi AdamH,
Very kind thank you. I am trying to get a hold of the title deeds - if indeed I need them, for a property that I have recently finished my last mortgage payment with.
I understand I may not need this, any further light you can shed on the matter is much appreciated.
Kind regards,
JohnnyH
Comment by AdamH posted on
JohnnyW - if it’s registered then you don’t need anything to prove your ownership until you decide to sell, remortgage etc. When you do your buyer/lender will get a copy of the title from us so they have the current record rather than one you got a number of years earlier.
Generally speaking most registered properties have now been sold a few times over. So in many cases the first registered owner has long gone and most won’t have handed over the original deeds to the buyer. The register and title plan are therefore now the title deeds.
The nice to have comment indicates that they can be of interest, helpful even at times but their importance dimmed considerably once the title was registered.
So if you’ve paid off your mortgage and it’s registered with us you need do nothing.
If you want to check what the register and/or title plan show then you can but there’s no need to other than your own interested to know.
Comment by JohnnyW posted on
Hi AdamH,
Thanks for your quick reply.
I hope you find your 27B-6 (Brazil reference).
Kind regards,
JohnnyW
Comment by Catsmother posted on
I totally agree and I'm having the same issues. 🙁
Comment by Ron Eccles posted on
I am having great trouble in understanding what form/s I require to apply for. I have a brief copy that states my wife and I own our property It gives the Title number. What I want to know is what I can use or put on my land/ property. I am told by neighbours that a caravan or motorhome cannot be parked on the property. So what kind of paperwork will give these details and clauses, 'Full', 'Official', 'Copy'? It is all very complicated for the layman, to find out what we can do on our property.
Comment by AdamH posted on
Ron - restrictions on what you can/can’t do with regards a registered title will normally appear as ‘restrictive covenants’ on the register. From the comment I suspect you have a copy of the register.
Such covenants, if they exist, are usually referred to in the C Charges Register.
If they are then they will either be set out on the register itself or the deed is referred to as ‘filed’
You can check the register online or you can apply by post for a copy (form OC1)
If there is a ‘filed’ deed you can apply by post for a copy (form OC2)
Our online guidance takes you through it so start with the register and go from there
https://www.gov.uk/get-information-about-property-and-land/copies-of-deeds
If it’s still complicated then share the title number and I’ll try to help
Comment by Ron Eccles posted on
Hi Adam. Thanks for your reply. The link takes me to a section where I can order a copy of the Title Deeds. I have this already and this is where it states there are 'filed Restrictive Covenants', so it won't help getting another copy. The Title number is NYK234364, mif that is any help to you.
Comment by AdamH posted on
Ron - understood so if the deed is filed and you don’t have a copy you need form OC2 and £7 cheque/postal order to apply for one
Comment by Lydia posted on
Hello I wonder if you can advise me, I recently (5weeks ago) purchased a freehold property that has a rentcharge and restrictive covenants in place. We are hoping to pay off the rent owner/covenant beneficiary but haven’t received our deeds yet do you know how long it will take for the deeds to be updated with our new ownership?
Also once we have redeemed the rentcharge and had the covenants released will the deeds need to be updated with the land registry?
Thanks
Comment by AdamH posted on
Lydia - if it’s an already registered title and you used a conveyancer then the wait time is currently around 4/5 weeks.
If the rentcharge is t9 be redeemed then it would be normal to apply to update the register to remove it
Comment by Lydia posted on
Thanks so much for your reply Adam
Comment by akawa posted on
My neighboro has had his house sale stopped because he cannot prove he has access to the property (his drive crosses mine) now his solicitor is demanding my deeds do I have any legal right to
Comment by AdamH posted on
Akawa- something to get legal advice on
Comment by Anthony Howarth posted on
Thank you for this helpful blog, Frank. I feel though that we should not overlook the elephant in the room in that the Land Registry’s scanning process has not been infallible and I would have thought that a substantial proportion of your audience has, at one time or another, been told that the Registry does not have a copy of a document that is referred to as being “filed”.
In the above circumstances, whilst the Registry is happy to indemnify the registered proprietor , the production of the original deed (or a certified copy) by a disponor or other party is vastly preferable.
Comment by Frank Ramsay posted on
Hello Anthony. I agree with you that original deeds (or certified copies) are preferable in this circumstance.
I would add that if anyone believes that our records are incomplete, they should get in touch and submit their original deeds so that we can make updates or corrections. It's in all of our interests for the Land Register to be as accurate and rich in detail as possible.
Comment by Diana C posted on
Hello, CYM364915 is a barn converted into several properties. The official copy of register of title referrers to rights granted and rights reserved by a transfer dated 10/4/2003 in section A - Property Register. The notes for these rights are flagged as missing on the system. However from purchasing the Title Register for the original farm house CYM159474 and one of the other buildings CYM364938 I can see the same rights reserved and granted on both these titles which it says are filed under CYM155461. A search for this title states it is not recognised. Is it possible that Land Registry can access the notes detailing what the rights granted and reserved are, from these other properties to provide the missing notes on CYM364915 ?
Comment by AdamH posted on
Diana - if it refers to a Transfer as being ‘filed’ then it’s a file reference only and you’d apply for a copy of the Transfer by post. It’s register, if it existed, would not help.
https://www.gov.uk/get-information-about-property-and-land/copies-of-deeds
Comment by Diana C posted on
Hi Adam thanks for your quick response, I have been sent the title register and accompanying notes from the vendors solicitor as I am purchasing the property. However there is an official missing document notice from Land registry for the notes relating to the second easements listed on the title. As they are also referred to on ever registered title on all the other 5 properties in the complex could land registry not copy the missing notes from one of these properties to complete the title on the one where they are missing. It's going to mean an indemnity policy each time the property is sold. Which is unnecessary when the missing notes are. Available on the other properties and would be so easy for land registry to be able to correct. Could this please be actioned.all relevant title numbers provided in my original post.
Comment by AdamH posted on
Diana C - I suggest you use our Contact form to submit your enquiry and issue. This is a blog so you really need our support team to check an£ respond
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/coronavirus-covid-19-impact-on-hm-land-registrys-services#contacting-hm-land-registry
Comment by Laura McConnell posted on
Totally agree! I have applied for two documents this week, on different properties, which are stated as “copy filed” but then they are no longer available!
Comment by AdamH posted on
Laura - a register may refer to them as 'copy filed' but once the file is retrieved they may be 'missing'. Unfortunately it can happen but it is very rare. Apologies if that is the case here
Comment by Tim Higham posted on
Deeds have taken on a far greater definition as any buyers lawyer will know, they end up with a bundle at the end of a purchase and almost certainly send them to their client (for storage reasons) and they will be:
1. Council consents
2. Guarantees
3. FENSA and Oil/has/electrical certificates
4. Covenant/landlord consents
5. Searches
6. The original lease
7. Management information
8. Share certificates
9. New built warranties
Firms who say they hold nothing as all dematerialised are lazy as they should seek that pack.
Comment by Julie Billington posted on
Hello
I’ve just had a very long conversation with Cheltenham & Gloucester about obtaining my historical deeds just for sentimental reasons! The upshot is no matter how much I plead, because they were registered the deeds were dematerialised, which I was aghast about as I thought this country was all about history! Any advise would be helpful.
Comment by AdamH posted on
Julie - there is no deeds repository for historical records such as these. If the property was already registered when you bought it then it is highly unlikely that the lender had any old deeds/documents other than a copy of the land register itself. Do you know your title number?
Comment by James Anthony posted on
Hello Julie,
Lately I too have been looking into where my original title deeds are. I thought my solicitor held them, so I asked them to hand them over. Seeing they were just copies I then thought the Land Registry held them. Now I have learn't by this website today that the Land Registry destroy them.
Now we don't own the property, the Land Registry do, making them available on the land & accessible for the government to take using corporations. Now our property is Corporate owned.
Just like when we buy a vehicle, we own it until we register it with the government corporation in Swansea. DVLA become the owners making us just the Registered Keepers of the vehicle. That way they can then tax, insure, MOT, & penalise us as if we had a commercial vehicle.
The scariest & most shocking betrayal is, & most of us are guilty of it including me, when our children are born, we then birth them like a ship into the government Maritime / Admiralty Law as a corporation. Our children are now dead vessels taken from the living sovereign common law of the land & made a slave of the sea. The government now have full legal control of their slave aboard their Corporate Ship being lost at sea, giving them liberty but not freedom to walk the land.
An important saying I will now always remember in everything I do: Before & until contract, we are free under Common law.
Comment by AdamH posted on
James - we do not destroy the original title deeds.
Please note that all comments made to the blog are subject to moderation. As such they may not be published immediately.
We have not published your further comment as that related to the non-publication of this comment.
Comment by David Dreebin posted on
Hello Adam or anyone else in HM Land Registry,
I have just written an email to my local branch of Land Registry to request a copy of my title deeds. I no longer have a mortgage so am unable to ask the previous mortgage provider. Now, I have read this blog and comments saying that Land Registry no longer hold paper copies.
Obviously I did have them originally but have lost or mislaid them, an action which is, of course, not recommended but sadly something that does happen.
The reason I'd like a copy urgently is that I wish to extend my lease which is now under 70 years, and my lease extension surveyor has said that he needs a copy of the lease.
Was hoping you would hold a copy at least digitally. Would you be able to help? Many thanks.
Comment by AdamH posted on
David - the register and title plan can be downloaded online. But a copy lease can only be applied for by post https://www.gov.uk/get-information-about-property-and-land
If your solicitor is a conveyancing one they can apply online in most cases for all three
Comment by Sandra N. Rees posted on
As my husband and I had paid off our mortgage aprox 6 months ago I enquired about having the original deeds returned. I was horrified to be told by a flippant member of staff that Land Registry did not have them. They are a historical document and wanted them returned. Enquired with HSBC (lender) and solicitor but could not advise me at all. I contacted the Western Mail who noted the story.
I think it is disgusting that we were not advised by either department what was the procedure and I still want our deeds returned !!!!!
Comment by AdamH posted on
Sandra - I'm sorry if we were flippant in our handling of your call. We don't hold original deeds/documents and this blog post explains how they are returned to the applicant after first registration. I can see we have a record of a contact by phone from you in April 2017 and the record includes an email reply also. I'll pick that up and email you again with a bit more specific insight into what, in my experience, may have happened re. any original deeds.
Comment by Anthony Rose posted on
Hi Adam,
I have a similar predicament to Sandra, the convayancing solicitor for Santander, my lender, tells me they forwarded all the documentation to my property built in the 1850’s to the Land Regisrty. How do I trace this paperwork?
Comment by AdamH posted on
Anthony - you will probably find that their reply is a standard one re their not holding any 'deeds' and that the register is held electronically by us. As the article explains we don't retain the original deeds/documents. Lender's don't send us the original deeds when the mortgage is paid off.
In the vast majority of cases and where a property has been sold/bought a few times after it has been registered those original deeds are not passed on. If the mortgage was taken out pre-2000 then the lender might have had a copy of the registered title in the form of a charge certificate - sometimes when they say they sent the deeds to us they mean that document. They don;t mean any other deeds/documents I'm afraid
Comment by Martin posted on
I have also just paid off a mortgage, and am trying to locate my deeds.
I am disgusted that nobody seems to know where they are!
I am also annoyed that I am expected to pay for a copy of something that essentially now belongs to me and should have been automatically sent to me as soon as I paid off the mortgage
Comment by AdamH posted on
Martin - can you give me your title number please and I'll do my best to shed some light on the issue re the original deeds/documents. As the article explains there is no need for you to hold a copy of the registered title although I appreciate that you may wish to check/confirm the registered details if the lender did not provide you with a copy.
Comment by June posted on
This has also happened to me and my husband a rang land registry about my deeds am still trying to get in touch with them from 12 o’clock dinner time a want my deeds
Comment by ianflowers posted on
June - I am sorry to hear you've had difficultly contacting us. If you still haven't been able to get in contact and if you're happy to give the title number, we'll check the position.
Comment by LEO SCHUYT posted on
I agree that they good send a copy,of your title deed.When you paid out your mortgage.
Comment by ianflowers posted on
Leo - we note your feedback, but as mentioned there is no need for the owner to hold a paper copy of the title register/plan that we hold in electronic form. It's also a matter between the lender and borrower as to whether a copy of the title documents are provided when the mortgage is paid off.
Comment by diane posted on
I am sorry but I suspect your deeds have been destroyed by your mortgage lender. Our mortgage lender finally admitted that they destroyed the deeds to our property. They were informed by the land registry that the paper deeds were no longer needed and that they could do with them what they wanted, so they destroyed them. No body likes to admit to you that this has happened because they know that they were wrong about what they have done. I don't know how they can get away with it. I was told it was a business decision, people making these sort of decisions looking after our money - nice.
Comment by June posted on
I too have been trying to trace my deeds. Santander have been very unhelpful and said they never had them. Mortgage now paid off and over a month down the line still waiting for confirmation letter that the mortgage is paid off. I have been told that before they were destroyed by whoever they should have been offered back to us. They were not. I also don't see why I should have to pay to get a copy of any documents. Mortgage lenders should send a copy automatically. I have to accept that I may never get the deeds back and I really wanted them for historical purposes.
Comment by AdamH posted on
June - are you willing to share the title number involved? I may be able to shed some light on what may have happened to the 'deeds'?
Comment by June posted on
Thank you that would be greatly appreciated. The title number is HT19606.
Comment by AdamH posted on
June - many thanks. So the title was first registered back in 1963 and the original deeds/documents would have been returned to the lodging solicitor at that time. They would have include a copy of the registered information as well in the form of a Land (unmortgaged) or Charge (mortgaged) certificate.
On the next sale the original owner may have handed over those original deeds/documents but it is equally possible that they did not. There was and is no requirement to do so. They would have handed over the Land or Charge certificate though and a new one issued to the new owner.
I don't know how or when the property was next sold after 1963 as our electronic records only start from 1994 for this title and refer to your own details as registered from 1987 but in many cases matters were dealt with by a buyer's solicitor and you would not always know what deeds/documents were handed over in such cases as often they went straight to the lender for security reasons. Of course if you recall seeing them then I can appreciate the frustration now felt.
In my experience your mortgage lender at the time will definitely have held the Charge Certificate issued in 1987 but they may not have had the original deeds/documents to which you refer. I note that the original mortgage was also not with Santander (Abbey National as they once were) but that it was transferred to them in 2007. Whilst that may be irrelevant re the original deeds/documents it may explain why the records Santander have are inconclusive?
None of this answers your fundamental question but it may help ease the frustration to a small extent knowing that it is quite possible that your lender never had the original deeds/documents for the reasons mentioned.
On a more positive note I can confirm that the mortgage details were removed from the title on the 22nd October.
Comment by Jim Kendall posted on
I have become very aware of how efficient the Land Registry is or was. 21 years ago I purchased my house and the front garden & driveway outside the building were added to my plot, from the original plans. Now I have found that this extra land has been placed on-top of my house and my next door neighbour still owns all the land up to my front windows. Surely someone at the L.R. must have noticed you cannot put a garden & driveway on-top of a two story house?
Comment by AdamH posted on
Jim - I would agree and would suggest that you contact us with the specific details so we can check and amend any errors as appropriate https://help.landregistry.gov.uk/app/contactus_general
Comment by Mike posted on
A really insightful overview of some of Land Registry's purpose and practices there, dispelling some previously held perceptions too. Trying to hunt down title deeds and being unsure of who may have them in the past is exactly why it is so vital to have, and maintain, the register.
Comment by Janice posted on
I have just bought a house only to be told by solicitor that nobody knows where the original deeds for the property are located, as the property was built in 1892 I am sure that the original deeds would hold a lot of information regarding my property some of which I might need to know but will now never find out
Comment by Tina posted on
Hi
I’m trying to locate more recent deed not the original, but my solicitor says they destroy them after 7years.
When you go to Solictor and both you and your partner sign them do you receive a copy? As on original deed only my husband name on it.
Comment by John posted on
I purchased a house 5 years ago without title deeds, but was offered an indemnity policy to set up the means for compensation should someone with a superior title ever show up, which I was told was virtually a Zero chance scenario. The property is registered with the Land registry in my name, so theoretically the missing deeds should not be an issue. However, when speaking to a potential mortgage provider today over a new deal, I was told "we steer clear of any property where there may be any chance at all of a risk to our security". My question is, am i left with a house that I cant sell in the future, if mortgage providers are this concerned ?
Comment by AdamH posted on
John - if a buyer's mortgage lender won't secure against that risk then yes but not all buyers/lenders will take that view in my experience. Lenders will vary considerably re such matters not only re a Yes/No but in their reasons for either decision so in my experience I would not say you are left with a house you cannot sell.
Comment by John posted on
Thanks Adam. Its obviously a concern for me as it changes the playing field a bit when we come to moving on. I may be unduly worried, but I'm going to seek some professional legal conveyancing advice on where I stand / what the implications are for the future. I went into the purchase with sound legal advice, but I think its time to revisit the situation. Much appreciated.
Comment by AdamH posted on
John - understood and very much the right thing to do. All I can usefully add is that a 'possessory title is not unusual and very commonplace.
Comment by Gillian posted on
Hi hoping you can help with my inquiry. I paid off my mortgage on February 10th and was told I would receive paper work in 10 - 14 days, after many phone calls 17 days later and still no paper work I am now told the mortgage was discharged on the 26th and the Land Registry have been informed. My question is will I actually get any paper work from the Land Registry to make it official? If so how long should it take? I do have a bundle of old documents which I believe includes the original deeds. Thank you Gillian.
Comment by AdamH posted on
Gillian - most lenders remove their mortgage electronically and they receive a confirmaiton from us what that has happened. We do not routinely notify the actual owner/borrower. If you wish to check/confirm the current registered details then you can do that online using the link in the blog article itself
Comment by Bill posted on
Hi
For some one to make a claim on a property that has been devided in percentage, are they required to produce the original? As they only have a photocopy of the document
Comment by AdamH posted on
Bill - if they are looking to claim a % of the beneficial ownership then that is something to get legal advice on. Such a claim would in my experience be a matter of law and not a registration issue
Comment by Neil Hartley posted on
Hi,
We're in the process of buying a house and our solicitor has said that "when the property was first registered at the Land Registry details of easements and restrictions were not provided to the Land Registry and the seller has no information at all about this or the previous deeds other than a photocopy of a 1968 deed when the land was first conveyed".
An indemnification policy was suggested to protect us but my concern is that we will have an issue selling the property later (possibly to someone needing a mortgage per the comment from John above). Our solicitor initially suggested the policy would be a good solution but then suggested we may be creating a problem for the future. Do you have any advice for us?
Comment by AdamH posted on
Neil - I'm afraid we can't really offer any additional guidance here and you should rely on your solicitor. I suspect the issue they are referring to relates to what is known as a 'protective entry' on the register that states that the title is subject to any easements/covenants which may have existed prior to the 1968 deed but we do not know if any exist or not. This entry can appear where deeds have bene lost or are not produced so it is there to protect against someone coming forward with an old deed that affects
In my experience in the past such entries posed few problems for buyers/lenders but the perception of risks has changed over the years and it is quite common for indemnity policies to be sought to insure against those risks. I'm not aware that having such a policy then poses a different or wider risk but your solicitor/lender may be able to explain why they think that may be the case. After all the entry and any perceived risk will still be there, indemnity policy or not.
Comment by Neil Hartley posted on
Thanks for your input Adam...
Comment by John posted on
Hi Neil,
Just to add a bit more of my own story for you, I have since provided all my documents to the new mortgage provider (we are moving from one bank to another) and they were satisfied that the Title absolute in my name and the indemnity policy was satisfactory to approve the mortgage. I have also checked with a property solicitor who commented that the paper deeds are largely only to confirm restrictive covenants or access. He also said, "once you have Title Absolute, stop worrying." In my case, the property was only built 7 years ago on a piece of land that never had a house on it before, so the odds of someone turning up with a superior claim are virtually nil.
Comment by elizabeth doyle posted on
I am sick and tired of waiting for my title deeds, I waited four weeks for my bank on their title deeds . they wrote me letter on 15th april 2019 , they did not make it clear so I waited. I went to my solicitor for some advise and they said to contact the land registry and gave me the phone number I paid £7 for this title deed . Two weeks later they have not even bothered to write me a letter to say they can't find them. This country has a pay up and shut up service. this is yet another example of taking money out of people for no service or customers care. I paid a lot of money for my flat and yet no one wants to help me . I have just paid £30 for another form , I need to see if the bank's name is off the title information, I am sick and tired of paying for forms that I don't even know are right, I thought by phoning the land registry they would at least give me the right form, all they want is money for no service. These properties are not cheap we pay a lot of money for it , how about you show some customer care and show me what form I need for my title deeds, there are enough to choose from. what a loosy service. I am still waiting to sort my title deeds six weeks later.( date today is 26/05/2019) good luck government at scamming lots more people out of money, don't you think we pay enough on housing. the biggest scam ever 0 out 130,000 for customer care
Comment by AdamH posted on
Elizabeth - I'm sorry to read that you have had such an awful experience. I see you have also emailed us so I'll pick that up and respond in more detail.
The precis what appears to have happened here it seems that you recently paid off your mortgage and the lender confirmed/advised you of that. We do not hold original deeds and documents and in the case of your flat we would have the register, title plan and copy lease and together they are the 'deeds'. An official copy of each costs £7 and the forms to use are OC1 (register/title plan) and OC2 (lease). If your solicitor referred you then they will I imagine have suggested using form OC1 and applying for a copy of the register
https://www.gov.uk/get-information-about-property-and-land/search-the-register
The £30 reads as if you may have used another website/service to request copies.
Comment by liz posted on
thank you for your response, I have just found the document that I placed an order on for title deeds and the bank names are edited off it now. It is nice to see a positive reply, I am sorry if it was a negative blog, but the banks are expecting customers to know in a field they are not familiar with. The bank's letter did not even tell me what forms , internet web pages to go to. the bank did not tell me to search land registry files, hope the next customer has it easier.
Comment by Jason posted on
Hi, My mother is selling her house but has lost the deeds. I have downloaded a document via the land registry site that gives a title number and names my mother as the registered owner...so I think this means that land registry holds digital copies of the deeds and she needn't worry about the sale of her house. Her solicitor has said nothing can be done without the deeds to her house so will have to apply for them from the land registry which could delay the sale by 4/5 weeks. I'm confused...can you help explain what the position is please?
Comment by AdamH posted on
Jason - as the article explains if the property is registered then the deeds are not needed to prove her ownership. I'd check back with the solicitor for clarification as to why a delay
Comment by Alison posted on
My father can’t sell his house either the same way as the person above solicitor says we can’t sell until the Title and Deeds are corrected. My dad paid on his house and come to find out he bought my step moms share out but did not know that the deeds and title are in his deaceased mother and father in laws name he paid the mortgage by himself for 30 years now he can’t sell his house at all.
Comment by AdamH posted on
Alison - I'm not sure there is anything I can usefully add here other than confirm that it's legal advice you need to unravel what has happened re the legal and beneficial ownerships
Comment by Duncan Green posted on
I’m in a slightly similar quandary. My parents purchased a property in 1975 when it wasn’t compulsory to have your property registered. They had a mortgage which they paid off in 1985. The mortgage provided a letter saying that the loan had been paid back but the mortgagee could not register a D Notice (I think) with the land registry as the property was not registered so there still appears to be a loan against the property. We have now registered the property but because there is a loan against it according to the Land Registry my mother would find it impossible to sell. The mortgage was the Caledonian Bank (wherever they are now) and it is proving impossible to find someone from the successors of the bank ( now Lloyd’s) who can help get the proper notice served. I know you are not meant to get advice in this blog.....but you never know....
Comment by AdamH posted on
Duncan - it’s not a D notice but a Land Charge (class D) that I assume was put in place to protect the mortgage against the unregistered property.
I suggest you use our contact form to submit the specific details. https://help.landregistry.gov.uk/app/contactus_general
You’ll probably get an auto reply so reply to that and attach a copy of the letter from the lender. Our support team can check the register and advise on next steps as appropriate
Comment by Duncan Green posted on
Thank Adam - I have sent an explanation of the problem to your colleagues. Fingers crossed.
Comment by Troy posted on
I am pretty disgusted at what I am reading here and am no clearer on the position than before I started reading. In 2016 we paid off our mortgage in full; such a relief. Cheltenham and Gloucester plc were asked to provide the title deeds to me and a delayed standard letter in the form of a flippant dismissal referred me to Land Registry. I paid the appropriate fees for "electronic copies of ownership, map" etc......but I still want the original paper deeds and have found both the lender and HMLR to be assumptive and unhelpful. C&G are now deceased and trying to find the right contact point at Lloyds Bank has been HELL. Somewhere in England the title deeds, rightfully belonging to me and my wife, are in a bundle gathering dust. I want the original documents and no one seems to want to help. Thinking of taking this to my MP and the press
Comment by ianflowers posted on
Troy - I am sorry for the difficulties you have experienced and that you feel we were unhelpful. As mentioned in the blog, it is the case that we return the original documents to the person who lodged them when a property is registered for the first time - usually to the solicitor acting. We should be able to confirm this and provide any other information that may be relevant from our files.
The usual practice where a property was subject to a mortgage was for the solicitors to pass the deeds onto the lender, but we have no control or involvement in this and therefore we cannot confirm whether this happened in a particular case. Many lenders converted their records to electronic format in recent times and their approach in dealing with original paper title deeds varied. Again, this is something that we are not involved with and you would need to continue to take this up with the lender involved and follow their complaints process if you remain unhappy.
Comment by diane posted on
After kicking up a stink and writing an email complaining to Lloyds I finally got a phone call from Lloyds and they admitted that our deeds had in fact been destroyed. They Land Registry advised them that the deeds were no longer needed after being electronically stored so Lloyds Bank in their infinite wisdom destroyed them. I am angry that we were treated this way, that we were not informed. I am more angry and disgusted that they are not admitting to other people what they have done. I don't understand why they thought it was acceptable to do this and to basically cover it up like they are doing is just wrong.
Comment by AdamH posted on
Diane - I don;t recall that we advised lenders that 'the deeds were no longer needed'. As the article explains we discontinued issuing Land/Charge Certificates which were a copy of what we held on record/electronically. The term 'deeds' can be used in a variety of contexts but often lenders would hold older deeds as well but not always depending on what the borrower had at the time
Note - when you add a comment to a blog there is an approval process before it is made public. I have approved two of your comments but not the third which was largely a duplicate of this one
Comment by Rachael posted on
I have found the deeds to a property I no longer own. What on earth should I do with them?
Comment by AdamH posted on
Rachael - I would suggest writing to the 'Owner' at the address to see if they would like them for example
Comment by Rachael posted on
Thanks Adam. That's a good idea, I'll try that.
Comment by S Scott posted on
Can you please tell me which document I need to purchase from the Land Registry that would give me the details of any covenants relating to a freehold property.
Comment by AdamH posted on
S Scott- you should search and check the register first. If there are covenants and they are in a 'filed' deed then you can apply for a copy by post https://www.gov.uk/get-information-about-property-and-land
Comment by Augur Pearce posted on
A conveyance can easily impose a trust, and since the Register will never give details of that trust there are times when it is not simply 'a good idea' but essential to retain the deeds. Example: A gives Whiteacre to T (a trust corporation) for certain charitable purposes. Later T sells Whiteacre to B using the proceeds to buy Blueacre. If T now only holds register entries for Blueacre these may contain a charity restriction but won't indicate the purposes for which it is held. To ascertain those, one will need to refer to the Whiteacre conveyance.
Comment by Deborah Pottage posted on
Don't no if I'm on right post
I need a copy of the deeds of a property I no longer own but for when I did own it how do I get this
Comment by AdamH posted on
Deborah - not one for the blog really and I'd suggest completing our online contact form with the specific details and we can then check and email you back https://help.landregistry.gov.uk/app/contactus_general
Comment by meg posted on
Just paid our mortgage a week ago, and lender told us to order a copy of the tittle deeds from land registry. Can you please direct me on what to do or what application form do i need to fill up and payment if possible. Thank you
Comment by ianflowers posted on
Please see our guidance - https://www.gov.uk/search-property-information-land-registry . You can download the title register for £3 which will hopefully have the mortgage removed but you might want to wait a few days before doing so to make sure. A referred to in the guidance, you can also order a copy of the title plan (also £3) showing the general extent of the property.
Comment by Michele Trewhella posted on
Please can I jump on this thread. Which form is it to apply for a copy of the deeds. OC 1 or OC2 Can’t understand the gov forms . I want to know who own the fence on my right hand side to clarify who is responsible for repairs after the storms. Michele
Comment by AdamH posted on
Michele - form OC1 is used to check the register/title plan. If the register refers to any deeds as being 'filed' then you can use form OC2 to apply for copies
The registered information may not specifically refer to the boundaries and even if it does it may not be the definitive detail. Have a read of this blog article as well https://hmlandregistry.blog.gov.uk/2018/02/27/drawing-the-line-on-boundaries/
Comment by Michele posted on
Thanks I already searched. And paid. £6 Downloaded the title deeds and title plan Is Is a joke Just an OS map with a red pen run around my property Even the land registry Gov states they are not copies waste of money .I got a better plan myself just by googling no cost. Thanks for your reply
Comment by AdamH posted on
Michele - I'm sorry you think that the information is a 'joke'. The online service does provide an example of the title plan for example so you can see what information you are buying. And the title plan is intended to show the registered general boundaries and rarely anything else.
A google plan or aerial imagery will show you what's on the ground but that does not always match what is registered/owned for example. And as you are now aware from the blog article on boundaries the registered details will rarely categorically answer any questions around who owns or is responsible for a boundary.
The registered details can still help but often only in conjunction with other information as well as shared understanding of how you and your neighbour(s) view the boundaries. Even the register/title plan when silent forms part of that discussion
Comment by Michele posted on
Thanks for all your help and info but seriously the plan I found was far more comprehensive. And free. The title dees were worth purchasing but not the plan. I have never found such an antiquated web site so difficult to navigate around got what I needed in the end . Your blog was the far mor helpful
Comment by Michele posted on
Sorry I didn't mean it was a google plan. I meant I found a better comprehensive detailed plan through a google search
Comment by lorraine robinson posted on
Hi Adam, I hope you don't mind me jumping in. i bought a property in wales in February but have still not received any registration documents. I contacted my conveyancer who said "the land registry have raised a requisition on the application" what does this mean and how long does it take to rectify this issue. hope you can help.
Comment by AdamH posted on
Lorraine - it means the application was incomplete so we’ve asked for more details. Once they’ve supplied those then hopefully in the coming weeks it will be completed.
From your perspective you’ve bought and are protected as the application to register is with us. There’s no urgency to it then being registered provided the application is with us. Hopefully it will be completed soon
Comment by Clare posted on
We have a certificate of lawfulness - how do we go about our next steps to gain deeds to the property or to get a loan against the property or anything similar for the future please ?
Comment by AdamH posted on
Clare - the term 'certificate of lawfulness; is not one that I have come across before. In England and Wales loegal owernship is proven by either possession of the deeds/documents inc a legal deed in your favour with unregistered land or a registered title confirming your ownership. It is that evidence that allows you to use the land/property as security for a loan for example
Comment by James F posted on
"Certificate of Lawfulness' is a term relating to the planning system - try searching for 'Planning Portal' at http://www.gov.uk for more info.
Comment by AH posted on
Are there any way that I can find out where in the prosess of registration we are? Property (new build) was purchased and completed mid November 2017. The address is 6 Widvale Road,Mountnessing, CM15 0FF. Thank you
Comment by AdamH posted on
AH - I believe that one is Plot 24 on the development and the application was submitted on 23 January. The current average timescale for this type of application is around 66 working days so we still have a few weeks to go before I suspect it will be considered. If ther eis an urgency involved then I would recommend speaking to your solicitor and ask them to get in touch - they will know the process for doing so and the circumstances where we might be able to expedite the process
Comment by LeslieM posted on
My elderly mother lives in a leasehold flat in Bushey, Herts. In order to query some actions of the managing agents, I am trying to obtain a copy of her lease, as she does not appear to have one in her files and the solicitors who acted for my parents' purchase in 2006 say that they do not keep copies of documents that long. Will the Land Registry have a copy of the lease and if so how do I go about requesting one? I have the property's title number.
Comment by AdamH posted on
LeslieM - we may have a copy and I'd suggest checking the register first for the details. If the lease is refererd to and available then you can apply for a copy by post https://www.gov.uk/get-information-about-property-and-land
Comment by LeslieM posted on
Adam thanks for your reply. There's no specific mention of a lease in the deeds. Can I use form OC2 to ask for "the lease" or do I need to provide additional information?
Comment by AdamH posted on
LeslieM - form OC2 is used to apply for a copy of the lease and you will need to confirm that it is a lease and it's date and title number as part of the form in panel 7. If you don't know the date/title number then you should check the register first
Comment by Laura McConnell posted on
I disagree - a number of times I have telephoned the Land Registry before submitting first registration documents to be returned and I have always been advised that after the documents have been scanned they are destroyed & that I should request, when submitting the FR1, they are returned once they had been scanned. I think only once have original documents been returned!!
Comment by AdamH posted on
Laura - I am sorry if you have had a different experience re lodgement of your first registration application(s). Any original statutory declarations, statements of truth, subsisting leases, subsisting charges, certificates relating to Stamp Duty Land Tax or Land Transaction Tax and the latest document of title (such as the transfer to the applicant) will be retained, scanned and then destroyed. Apart from this, we will return the pre-registration deeds after registration.
Comment by Helen Aitken posted on
I purchased a property in oct 2016, on checking the shaded ares on my deeds it looks like I have an a joining field, but neighbour said last owners gave it to her?, how can I check if this is true, surely there must be paperwork to prove this...do I consult solicitors or who
Comment by ianflowers posted on
The title plan for your property will show the general extent of the land edged in red. You can buy a copy online for £3 - https://www.gov.uk/search-property-information-land-registry. If this doesn't seem to accord with the deeds, then, yes, check with the solicitors who acted for you in the first instance.
Comment by Pat posted on
Was going to get my original deeds out of storage and keep them at home as I thought we would always be able to get copies if ours were destroyed. Now after reading the above comments I am not so sure this would be a good idea. Also if I do obtain my deeds should I check that the registry has copies of them?
Comment by ianflowers posted on
Pat - It really depends on whether your property is registered with us as referred to in the blog - if it is you can check to see if we hold copies of any of the deeds but it is likely that most will have been returned when the property was first registered. Also, whether your are satisfied that the current storage is secure. That something you'd need to consider, but you may want to get some independent advice on this, for example, from Citizen's Advice.
Comment by Liam posted on
As a person living in N Ireland you may not be able to answer this query for me. I purchased my house back in 1991 via a mortgage, can you tell me if it would have been registered with the relevant body's via my solicitor, it was originally built in 1915? I have the original deeds at home as I'm now mortgage free.
Comment by ianflowers posted on
Liam - If the house is in N Ireland then I regret we won't be able to help and you need to contact https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/articles/searching-the-land-registry .
If the house is in England or Wales you'll be able to check this via our website.
Comment by Sam Miller posted on
We bought a house in May 2017, the vendor moved to America before it was completed. The house sale went through but our solicitors have been unable to transfer the title to ourselves as the proper paperwork was not sent from America by the vendors in an English Law format. Our solicitors are now having problems contacting the vendors and HM Land Registry say we cannot have the title transferred into our name until they sign the relevant paperwork to be sent to HM Land Registry. We are still not the legal owners of the property over twelve months later and now we want to sell the property and move and we are unable to do so. We keep hitting a dead end. Can our solicitors apply to court to get an order to have the title transferred or will we have to wait until the vendors get the right paperwork sent from America.
Comment by AdamH posted on
Sam - if a court ordered it to be transferred and a judge then signed the Transfer deed then it is possible yes. But in my experience that is very rare but your solicitor will have far more experience of how necessary such an approach would be here. You would have to convince a judge that you had done everything possible and that there was absolutely no chance of it being sorted by your seller and if I have read your comment correctly that is not yet the case. But as I say your solicitor will have more experience of this as we see the end result rather than what takes place to achieve that result.
Comment by Hugh Buckeridge posted on
I bought a converted barn in 2014 and in 2015 I became aware of easements affecting my property which the sellers were also not aware about when they bought the land from the farmer in 2004.
If this document was on my neighbours deeds (he purchased in 2010 from the previous owner who purchased the farmhouse in 2002)why is it not on my file if it relates to my property.
If the conveyancing solicitor for the farmer forgot in 2002 to send this document to the land registry how is it then "forgotten" in 2004 when he sold the land to the gentleman before me.
It seems no one is responsible for my legal problems for the last two years.
In addition in 2015 when my neighbour applied to the land registry to add the easements to my purchase deeds the land registry altered my documents even though I had written a long reply disagreeing with each of the three easements within the 21 days allocated for a reply.
Comment by AdamH posted on
Hugh - it reads as if the issue has been raised with us already so it would be wrong to try and consider it here as this is a blog rather than a forum. If there are issues with how we have registered the titles involved and/or made changes then I would recommend you pursue those through the specific contact channel already used and/or seek legal advice
Comment by Li posted on
Hi. My Gran is a widow and have passed away last year. I searched online and she left no will. Her property was co-owned with one of her son (my uncle) who we don't get on with. I got a copy of the latest register extract to show that my uncle is the only registered owner. Without going through the solicitors, how do I find out how the full ownership was transfer to my uncle. If I request a deed for the property, will it show this information?
Comment by AdamH posted on
Li - I would suggest contacting us initially to ascertain when the change was made and how. If it was recent then it may simply have been through notifying us of her death. But if changed before then there may have been a legal deed transferring the ownership for example. Without checking the specifics we can't be sure though https://help.landregistry.gov.uk/app/contactus_general/?utm_medium=newsletter&utm_source=govuk&utm_campaign=death_contact_page_to_contact_form&utm_content=web_page
Comment by LJK posted on
I am selling my late fathers property. Must I surrender the title deeds upon completion or can I keep them as a memento. Would they be available to the purchaser online?
Comment by AdamH posted on
LJK - entirely a matter between you and the buyer. Once a property is registered the proof of ownership is held by us in the form of an electronic register and title plan
Comment by david dearn posted on
My Aunt passed away recently and left me her house in her will i am trying to put it up for sale but my estate agent says that they cannot sell the house without the deeds to prove her ownership, My aunt lived in her house since shortly after the second world war and it was her parents home before that. I have tried the land registry entering the postal code and house number but they hold no records so what can i do?
Comment by AdamH posted on
David - it reads as if it is unregistered so you need to find the deeds and also obtain probate, although I'm guessing you have the latter already. If you can't find the deeds then our PG 2 explains what is required https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/first-registration-of-title-where-deeds-have-been-lost-or-destroyed
Comment by Gary posted on
Hi,
Apologies if this is the incorrect portal but I was wondering; if you could help us with some info. We’re trying to determine the remaining length of the leasehold on a property and if a share of the freehold is included. I did look at the Summary of title with HM Land Registry but those details are not included. How can we obtain this info?
Many thanks!
Comment by AdamH posted on
Gary- the leasehold register should confirm the date of the lease and the term. It is usually then possible to calculate what length of term is then left. If you used the Find Property Information service then that would not have given you the full register download so you may wish to obtain that to confirm.
You would need to check the freehold register and named owners to see if the leaseholders were also joint freeholders
Comment by Andrew H posted on
Wonder if anyone can help. As a residents management company we hold paper documents confirming owners will abide by the covenants of the close. My question is do we have to retain these documents and other general conveyancing papers after completion particularly in light of GDPR changes in May?
Comment by AdamH posted on
Andrew H - I'm afraid we can't advise you on what you should do here as these are matters/documents between you and the owners. I would suggest you seek legal advice as to the need for retention or otherwise as well as the impact of GDPR.
Comment by JeanR posted on
Can you help? We purchased land next to our property in 1978. The bank kept the deeds, but have now lost them. A land search says the land was never registered. Obviously I would like the deeds. Any suggestion as to what I can do?
Comment by ianflowers posted on
JeanR - If as you say the land is not registered we wouldn't hold any information on the location of the deeds. If you have not already done so, it might be worth re-checking with the bank to ensure they have conducted a thorough search. As to registration of the land, whether now or in the future, without any of the deeds this will be quite an involved process and most people would consult a legal professional, such as a solicitor, to act on their behalf. The loss of deeds may also impact on whether 'full' legal title can be given, but a solicitor will be able to advise you further on this.
Comment by JeanR posted on
Thank you for your reply. I have been searching through all our documents, trying to find something that may help and came across this: New Registration Certificate No: LC/209113/81. Are these land search numbers? I would like to do a second search of my own but am not sure how to go about it.
Comment by ianflowers posted on
You're welcome. That number appears to relate to a land charge registration certificate which protects the interest of a person, or an organisation in unregistered land.
Please see the links to guidance on GOV.UK - https://www.gov.uk/search?q=land+charges&filter_organisations%5B%5D=land-registry and also https://bit.ly/2r4bA1z . Please note the Practice Guide is written for legal professionals and may therefore contain some unfamiliar terms. Also that the Land Charges Index does not record the ownership of unregistered land.
Comment by IFC posted on
Hi ian, im in the process of buying a house. It's probate. They seem to be selling it 'limited title guarantee', theres no relatives so im not getting a Property Information Form and now the solicitor tells me that although the house is registered in the deceased's name (theres a title plan and title register available) there is no 'electronic deed' available from land registry. How can this be if theres a title register? It must have been summarised from something originally? The solicitor representing the executor of the will doesn't seem to have a deed either. Can I still even buy the house and if so could this cause me a problem if someone turns up with the paper deed later? Could any of this cause me problems when I come to sell? thanks
Comment by ianflowers posted on
IFC - Hi. As to the limited title guarantee, this is common practice where the seller, in this case the Executor, has no personal knowledge of the property. You'd need to consult further with the solicitor who will able to advise you of the full legal implications of this.
If the property registered, the electronic title record is in effect the title register and title plan. Sometimes a property will be registered but no paper title deed(s), such as old conveyances, are available. So again, you'd need to discuss this further with the solicitor who will be able to check the title register and plan as part of standard conveyancing process and advise you before you proceed.
Comment by JeanR posted on
I just read something interesting:
If you have land but no deeds, then you should submit an application to register it at the Land Registry. You will need to make a declaration as to how you come to own the land and for how long, including ownership and use prior to you...
Is this true? And if so where would I submit it? I've checked the registry sites but can't find the appropriate place. Please help, I'm going nuts here.
Thank you in anticipation
Comment by ianflowers posted on
JeanR - As you may have seen, the blog links to our Practice Guide 2 which explains the process - https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/first-registration-of-title-where-deeds-have-been-lost-or-destroyed . The guidance has been written for legal professionals who normally lodge this type of application on their client's behalf and it may therefore contain some unfamiliar terms. The address to send applications is here: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/hm-land-registry-address-for-applications .
There are benefits to registration but an application of this nature would be voluntary and so we cannot advise or direct you on how to proceed. If you're unsure, you may want consider getting some independent advice, for example, from Citizen's Advice, or a conveyancer such as solicitor.
Comment by IFC posted on
Also... the house is registered to the deceased as an 'absolute title' freehold. If theres no copy of the actual original deed am i likely to get it registered as absolute title for me when i buy it or would i have to make do with a possessory title?
Comment by ianflowers posted on
IFC - following on from my earlier reply, if the property is registered, the title register will give the class of title and that would be what you are buying.
Comment by StewartF posted on
I'm a bit confused about how sloppy the holding of the deeds to a property are, the deeds are the documents to the ownership of the property, if you pay all that money for a property and are not given the deeds how can you legally own it? the deeds are proof of ownership, in my case i have a copy of the deeds, in theory someone could turn up one day and say that this is their property by showing the original deeds, i also received an official copy of register of title from land registry, why did i receive a copy? i own the property, i should hold the original as well as the original deeds which the solicitors have certified are a copy of the original, a very poor quality copy. On the bottom of the copy of the deeds it has a warning against altering, adding to or otherwise tampering with, to take a copy of it could be classed as tampering with the original, this would then be a breach of the deeds. You are going to tell me that it is registered in my name, if someone was to challenge that in a court with the original deeds saying they had been living in another country for the last 20 years and come home to their house and found me living in it i would be looking to you at the land registry for answers and you would tell me?
Comment by ianflowers posted on
Stewart - I am sorry you have been left a bit confused. As mentioned in the blog, our title records are digital. The electronic title record is the definitive record of ownership and whether the conveyancing 'deeds' held are originals or certified copies, they are not needed to confirm ownership.
If an interested party needs to inspect the title then they need to apply to us for a copy of the electronic record. The 'official copy' is admissible (for example, in court) to the same extent as the original, i.e. the electronic record held by us.
The most important benefit of registration is the state backed guarantee of title which provides for compensation to be paid to an innocent person who suffers a financial loss because of a mistake in the register (for example, a mistake due to fraud).
If you are a registered owner with absolute title and in physical possession of the property, you are in a very secure position. That said, we essentially have an administrative role in registering ownership and other interests in land and so if any dispute did arise, you would need to consider seeking independent legal advice if you were unsure as to the way forward.
Comment by IFC posted on
Many thanks for your reply. So if the house is registered 'title absolute' to the deceased then it should be registered 'title absolute' to me when I purchase even if there's no deed? My solicitor seems to think the 'electronic record' of the deed is something different to the title register and title plan?
Thanks for your time IFC
Comment by AdamH posted on
IFC - the land register is held by us electronically so the 'electronic record' and register/title plan would be one and the same
Comment by IFC posted on
Thanks Adam! So if I’ve seen the title register and title plan for the house (I downloaded it from your website) but my solicitor says there’s no electronic deed. Any idea what this might mean? I’ve asked for clarification but I received the same answer. Does the mortgager usually accept registration as guarantee in the absence of a deed? Thanks
Comment by AdamH posted on
IFC - I can only speculate and supect they may be referring to a deed mentioned on the register as 'filed'. If there is such a deed or deeds then these are only available by post. They would know that though and have applied for copies as appropriate.
Comment by Kieron Connolly posted on
Hello
I have someone named in the short particulars of the lease on my deeds and want to try and contact them to discuss freehold purchase. Is there any way of seeing more details such as an address to contact them on?
Comment by AdamH posted on
Kieron - the parties listed are those named in the actual lease and often that document will include the postal address they were using at the time the lease was drawn up. You can apply for a copy of the lease by post if you think that will help and you don't have a copy already https://www.gov.uk/get-information-about-property-and-land/copies-of-deeds
Comment by Concerned seller posted on
Hi need help please!
solicitor sent the following from Land Registry confirming discharge will happen .. but the Land Registry says there been a delay to the below:
Application Type: Dealing
Customer Reference: DISCHARGE_APPN
Application Received By: None Recorded
Application Progress: Delayed, Prior Pending Application(s) or Official Search(es)
What does this mean?
Comment by ianflowers posted on
Hi. Difficult to say as there are number of reasons why we may not be in a position to process the discharge immediately. You can contact us https://www.gov.uk/guidance/contact-hm-land-registry with the property address and/or title number and we'll look into this.
Comment by Claire posted on
Hi. Looking for advice. I'm looking to remortgage a property and add my wife. Mortgage company will require her name adding to deeds also. Is this something I can do via form filling and fee paying or do I need a solicitor to do it?
Thanks
Comment by AdamH posted on
Claire - whilst you d not have to use a solicitor we always recommend that you do. Most lenders will insist on it though so do check with the lender for confirmation before trying to do it yourselves. Our online guidance explains the registration requirements. https://www.gov.uk/registering-land-or-property-with-land-registry/transfer-ownership-of-your-property
Comment by Nick Wilkinson posted on
Hi, I received deeds from the mortgage company when I paid it off. The deeds show a charge still against the mortgage company. I have been on line and got a copy of the title showing them no longer on it, but this document says it’s not official document. Where do I get the official version that shows my absolute title, or do I send the original back to you to update? Thanks
Comment by AdamH posted on
Nick - the online register will be the up to date detail. It's not an ;official copy' which is what you would need for say a court or similar authority to prove ownership. You don't need an official copy to confirm what is registered as the online download does that for you.
I suspect they have sent you the Charge Certificate - if so then simply keep that if you wish to. We no longer issue these so it has no legal value now.
Comment by paul posted on
hi, we are currently trying to sell a house that has 3 random names dated 22 years ago in leases for the land, it mentions restricted covenants & over riding interests, apparently no solicitor or the land registry has any copys of the leases, yet it clearly states that this is a freehold property meaning we own the building and the land its on, is it possible that these names on the leases arent anything to do with our property and could be anything on the housing estate that the developer built the houses on? it was built in 1999, the buyers solicitor wants these names removing so its proving quite a task..
Comment by AdamH posted on
Paul - impossible to answer other than if they are registered one assumes that they affect the property until proven otherwise. If you can't track the people down or the leases then it will be quite a task
Comment by Neil Croft posted on
Firstly let me say I find the Land Registry blogs far more usable than the help pages for a "normal" person like me trying to avoid the expense of the legal profession to manage a fairly simple, small estate.
I am about to send off the documents to transfer my late uncle's house to myself and first register it, and finally received the "deeds" from Santander today. Going through the vast bundle of guff they've sent me, do I really need to send everything and list it all on form DL or do I just need the conveyances and assents which show the effective creation of the individual property (it was originally the corner of a field) and its transaction history along with the searches I've done and probate?
Comment by AdamH posted on
Neil - its rare that we need everything but what you do send does need to be listed on form DL. Practice Guide 1 section 4.4.4 seeks to explain what is required, and does steer you to submitting everything, but as you will appreciate it can't be specific as every case differs. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/first-registrations
The 'guff' can be relevant to the title to be created so we err on the side of all being submitted as a result. Are there specific documents that you perhaps see as being 'guff'? That may help to identify why they are actually important and needed
Comment by Neil Croft posted on
The guide was helpful (I'd included a grant of probate but not a copy of the will!). The "guff" is primarily old land charge searches, which I presume are superseded, old mortgage documents now cleared, and original planning consents for the erection of the original bungalow.
Comment by AdamH posted on
Neil - you'll need an up to date Land Charges search so anything 'cleared' is most likely not needed as we would be looking at the most recent result. We would not need planning details as we are looking at the land ownership and how that has changed, been burdened etc. The planning process is quite separate so such items won;t be needed by us when we examine the title
Comment by Neil Croft posted on
Excellent! Thanks for the help. It’ll be in the post Tuesday.
Comment by Stuart posted on
I am trying to trace the ownership trail of a property, what is the best approach?
Comment by ianflowers posted on
Stuart - there is no one best or ideal approach, but there are some options open to you which may help in completing an ownership trail. As compulsory registration in many areas was not introduced until the 1980s/90s, previous/historical editions of the register may be of limited use if you are looking to follow a trail through many years. Please see our guidance 'Get historical registers' at https://www.gov.uk/get-information-about-property-and-land/search-the-register .
There may also be entries in the current edition of the register relating to older conveyancing deeds or there may be a copy of one or more deeds filed with us which may give some information as to historical owners. A document such as a transfer from the developer to the first house owner will obviously give definitive information as to ownership and the age of the house. Our blog 'How old is your house' - https://hmlandregistry.blog.gov.uk/2018/01/26/how-old-is-my-house/ may also be of interest.
This blog also sets out some other options for trying to locate historical 'title deeds' which may assist in completing such as trail.
Comment by Bert posted on
My neighbours are trying to suggest that they were given a small area of one of my fields by the previous owner of my house and land (over 24yrs ago!). The deeds and land registry show very clearly that the land is within my boundary. I have received a letter from neighbours solicitor stating it is their land, and they can prove it.... Am I right in assuming that since the whole field is within my boundary that they have no claim on it and that even if they were able to come up with some old paperwork suggesting that they were given it by the previous owner (deceased), the land continues to be mine?
Comment by AdamH posted on
Bert - you need legal advice here as to what your rights, and their's, might be. If they are looking to claim the land for whatever reason then it is that reason you need more details and legal advice on. We would only be involved as and when an application to register was made. If the claim was seen to be initially valid and the land is registered we would then write to you at the contact details on your register to seek your view - hence the need to get legal advice
Comment by S Crean posted on
Hi,
I have been notified that on the copy of register of title on section b, I am listed as title good leasehold but to remortgage I need this title to be absolute. I’ve lived in the property for 25 years , the original deeds were destroyed in the war. However, further deeds in paper were recreated in 1960 using prints reproduced from film of the original deeds. I have those deeds and all paperwork since. Is this enough to get the title upgraded to absolute?
Comment by S Crean posted on
The original deeds date back to 1935.
Comment by AdamH posted on
S Crean - we won't consider and decide whether the supporting evidence submitted is sufficient until the application to upgrade the title has been made. If you are unsure then I would recommend seeking legal advice/assistance. See section 3.2.3 for the extent of guidance we can provide on upgrading a good leasehold title https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/upgrading-the-class-of-title
Comment by S Crean posted on
Thank you.
Comment by Adam posted on
After payment, how long does it take to receive a copy of the title register? I am switching mortgage provider and there is a field for the title number. Is it important that I provide this?
Comment by AdamH posted on
Adam - if online then immediate and if by post then a few days. You will need it
Comment by Karen posted on
We've just paid off our mortgage. We have the very long and formal old paper deeds to our house (which is late Victorian) but nothing with our name on it. I've paid to download the very basic information online which shows just our names against the property and no reference to a mortgage, but feel like I ought to have something more "formal" for when we eventually sell the property or if we need to prove sole ownership.
Is it advisable to pay for that now or wait until we sell?
And if I should do it now, is it form OC1 or OC2 that I need? (Unlike this page, the advice on the web pages with those forms isn't clear for someone like me who simply wants the paperwork with their name on it as owner(s) of their property.)
Comment by ianflowers posted on
Karen - the title register (which I presume it what you've downloaded) has always constituted the proof of title/ownership. The only difference now is that it is held in electronic format and is available for inspection and download electronically.
There should not be any need to obtain official copies of your title documents at this stage. The normal process on a property sale is for the buyer's solicitor to do this along with the other enquiries they make on behalf of their client.
I am sorry you found our guidance on the GOV.UK pages unclear as to how to obtain official copies - we will take this on board. If you do decide to this, you will need to apply by post - OC1 is to apply for a copy of the register and/or title plan and OC2 is for a copy of a deed that is referred to as 'filed' in the title register and also for any deeds that we may hold but which are not referred to in the title register. Further details and links to the forms are available here: https://www.gov.uk/get-information-about-property-and-land/search-the-register .
Finally, as mentioned in the blog, although the paper titles deeds you hold are not needed to prove ownership, it is a good idea to hold on to them.
Comment by Ann T posted on
My husband and i are divorcing and his name is on the deeds/mortgage to our home (due to me having no credit rating), but i have lived there with him for the 18 years we have had the house. We will be splitting our assets and would it be worth my while to try and get my name on the Land Registry before we sell the house ??
Comment by AdamH posted on
Ann T - that is not something we can advise upon so very much something to discuss with your solicitor as to the best way to proceed. Your interest is presumably in the sale monies so it can be a question of ensuring that your share in those is protected as the Transfer would be by him as the registered owner.
Comment by Aileen posted on
Hi
I'm wondering can anyone shed light on my situation. I changed mortgage providers in 2006 and I received all deeds & documents to my home so I have them in my possession. I have still a hefty mortgage on this property. The new provider wrote to me 2016 requesting these documents but I have kept them. Does this turn the mortgage into an unsecured loan?
Comment by AdamH posted on
Aileen - from a registration perspective only a secured loan is one registered against the land title, which we register, or protected through the Land Charges department if the property is unregistered. With unregistered properties a lender will often retain the deeds as 'security'.
Comment by Liz Pearce posted on
We are in the process of selling our house but our buyers have a problem with their title on the sale of their own house, hence stalling everything. They bought their property in 1979 but it appears their solicitor at the time didn't ensure a previous Equitable Charge dated 1969 was discharged. The people holding the charge are a dissolved company & everything has been referred to The Crown, Bona Vacatia dept to try & remove this charge.
No paperwork can be found.
If the Company that was or any of the Solicitors involved or if indeed the Land Registry somehow didn't register the form 53 back in the day to release the charge, is the only option available that is left, is to get The Crown to vacate the Charge?
Thanks Liz
Comment by ianflowers posted on
Liz - The normal course would be for the Bona Vacatia dept to produce the necessary evidence / release but other courses of action may be considered depending on the individual circumstances of the case. It's really something for the solicitors acting to resolve with the parties involved and for them to contact us to try and resolve any difficulties.
Comment by Louise posted on
Hi,
My online estate agent has recently requested that I provide a copy of my land registry title so that they are compliant with HMRC requirements.
I was hesitant to provide this information as I thought it was a confidential document but they advised they would remove my property from the market if I did not provide this. I had a copy of the official title in my cabinet therefore they took a copy of this. Afterwards I began to panic that I have opened myself up to some kind of property fraud as they already have a copy of my driving licence and utility bill. Can anyone access this official document, am I worrying for nothing?
Louise
Comment by AdamH posted on
Louise - the land register has been open since 1990 so anyone can obtain the same details direct from us. As such you have not shared anything which is confidential it seems
Comment by Jim posted on
Hi, I have some large conifers beyond my garden beyond the communial footpath and two fences, there is a waterway Just the other side of them, I am trying to verify ownership of these trees as I believe they pose a threat to my house I have contacted the council in the past and struggled to get clarification a relative advised me to look at the deeds but I only have the title not the map, I have now obtained from your site according to the red on it the trees are within the perimeter, is there some sort of document I can obtain with written evidence of the trees and water way and any potential documentation, I don’t appear to have the original deeds which may or may not have contained them?
Comment by AdamH posted on
Jim - the title plan will show the registered general boundaries. If you are unsure as to whether the trees and/or waterway are included within those boundaries I'd recommend using a surveyor to report for you.
You state that the trees are within the red outline so the waterway is presumably the concern so it may be worth contacting the Environment Agency to see if they have a view on it's ownership
Comment by Charles Lennard posted on
Hi, I have a title to a piece of land, received from Land Registry a few years ago.
The Title makes reference to the Property register and Charges Register with the words (in italics) :"Note: Copy in the certificate".
To what certificate does this refer and how do I obtain a copy of same?
Comment by AdamH posted on
Charles - there used to be Land/Charge Certificates issued for registered titles but that is no longer the case. The register will now refer to Copy filed so if you want a copy of the document then you can apply by post for one https://www.gov.uk/get-information-about-property-and-land/copies-of-deeds
Comment by Tom O'Callaghan posted on
We bought our house in 1968 and it was registered. Does the land Registry
issue documentation proving who owns the house, and if so what's it called? Could this be used in lieu of deeds? We no longer have a mortgage nor have we notified anyone as we were not aware that it was necessary to do so.
Comment by AdamH posted on
Tom - if it's registered then the electronic register confirms ownership. Anyone can confirm those details online or by post as the blog article explains
Comment by Anne Feltham posted on
We have just finished paying off our mortgage and our house is now registered with the land registry and we have a copy of this which our lender sent us. I phoned the bank (lender) and asked them for the house deeds, but was told the land registry hold them and to apply for them.
According to the information above, this isn't correct and the mortgage lender should have them.
The house was originally purchased direct from the council in 2006 and we didn't need to use a solicitor.
I don't understand what's going on here and am totally confused. We simply want our deeds!
Comment by AdamH posted on
Anne - the term 'house deeds' can mean a variety of things to different people/organisations. When you bought your house from the Council there will have been no old deeds/documents as I assume the house was one of many they owned. Your house deeds will have comprised the Transfer from the Council to you which then triggered registration. So the register, title plan and copy of that Transfer are in effect the 'house deeds'
Comment by Graham Richards posted on
I downloaded the title register for my property after paying off the mortgage on it and the bank have verified that the charge was removed. However, it still shows their name and address as "Lender", is this just the last person of interest on the property or should that be removed? They have assured me that they removed the charge in 2016.
Thanks
Comment by AdamH posted on
Graham - if a mortgage has been paid off and redeemed then it should not appear on the register. It reads as if either they did not apply to remove it; we failed to remove it when they did; of there were perhaps two legal charges in their favour but they only applied to remove one of them at the time. Did you take a further advance or additional loan with them perhaps or is the charge date on the register the same as when you bought the property/took out the original mortgage as this would offer a clue as to what may have happened.
If not and you think there has been an error then I would suggest submitting the specific details and we can check what records we have on file and email a reply once confirmed https://help.landregistry.gov.uk/app/contactus_general/?utm_medium=newsletter&utm_source=govuk&utm_campaign=death_contact_page_to_contact_form&utm_content=web_page
Comment by Graham Richards posted on
Thanks, I have submitted a query via this link. Please can you check the status and let me know?
Comment by AdamH posted on
Graham - the support team will pick it up, consider and then reply by email. This is normally done within 5 working days
Comment by Yaffa Rowbotham Kramer posted on
Hi,
We have paid our mortgage in June and were told by the lender to apply for the Title Deeds at the Land Registry. (We have the Title Deeds number)
The Title Deeds is my document and should be sent free of charge, either electronically or an hard copy.
Why I am being asked to pay £59 plus vat for what is rightfully mine ?
Comment by ianflowers posted on
Hi. I regret I am not clear as to what the £59 charge relates to? Lenders will sometimes charge a redemption fee to complete the formalities when a mortgage is paid off. That is obviously a matter for the parties involved. As to the title deeds, some lenders may require the borrowers to apply for copies of the title documents themselves if they need to have a record of the mortgage being cancelled from the register. Our fees for obtaining copies of the title register and plan are £7 each (£3 each if obtained online) and an additional £7 each for a copy(ies) of any deeds/documents referred to as filed in the said title register. Please see our guidance - https://www.gov.uk/get-information-about-property-and-land . Please note that our website pages will differ from those of commercial organisations by having 'gov.uk' in the web address.
If you have any further queries, please contact us https://bit.ly/2F6AtxU quoting the title number.
Comment by diane posted on
I have found out that when our deeds were copied electronically the land registry informed the mortgage company when they returned them that they were no longer needed and they could do what they wanted with them. So our mortgage provider destroyed them without informing us. The transfer of deeds to electronic storage began in 2002 by the land registry. People are not informed about this and don't find out until they pay off their mortgage. They are then informed by their mortgage lenders to get in touch with the land registry and then charged money to get a copy of their deeds as the mortgage providers have destroyed original deeds. They do not tell you the truth until you kick up a stink. Disgusting money making racket just typical of the way this country treats its hard working citizens.
Comment by ianflowers posted on
Diane - the electronic title register was prepared from the paper registers that we held, not from the deeds. As mentioned in the blog, the original deeds are normally returned to the solicitors acting when the property is first registered with us. Where there was an outstanding mortgage, the lender would usually hold the deeds. But most converted their own records to electronic format and in that case would normally have been required to return any paper deeds to the borrower.
The relevant change in 2002 was that paper Land and Charge Certificates were made obsolete and were not required to be lodged on applications to change the register. But those certificates would have only contained a copy of the title register and usually only copies of any conveyancing deeds.
Please do contact us is you'd like us to look into your particular case: https://help.landregistry.gov.uk/app/contactus_general/?utm_medium=newsletter&utm_source=govuk&utm_campaign=death_contact_page_to_contact_form&utm_content=web_page .
Comment by Ruth Speirs posted on
Hi we are trying to get an old lease registered on our property as it mentions shared access rights and the buyers solicitor is adamant they won't complete without it. Buyer needs to complete by end of August and land registry says they will expedite - any guidance on how long this could take from the normal 58 working days?
Comment by AdamH posted on
Ruth - expedition will normally mean that the application is considered within 10 working days. Everything then usually depends on it being in order
Comment by Elise posted on
Would you be able to tell me who’s responsible for checking the deeds and boundary lines when buying a house? Having lived in my property for almost 3 years the council have advised that a portion of my front garden is actually council land that was paved over (prior to me moving) and they need it returned to council requirements. Surely this should have been picked up by someone in the Conveyancing process? Thanks
Comment by AdamH posted on
Elise - in my experience the conveyancer will ask their client to check and compare the registered/transferred extent with the reality on the ground. They don;t visit the property after all so normally that responsibility is passed to their client. But modern techniques such as google maps etc can mean they do take a look in some way but very much something to go back to your conveyancer with to see what they say
Comment by Elise posted on
Thanks for your help Adam. That does make sense although I don’t remember ever being asked to check this and unfortunately it isn’t something I ever would have thought to check myself.
The conveyancing company isn’t being very helpful they’ve stopped returning my emails now!
Comment by AdamH posted on
Elise - you may have to keep pressing and if you get nowhere then they should have a complaints process. You may not get the outcome you want but they should at least respond/close out the issue for you
Comment by Elise posted on
Thank you for the advice Adam, you’ve been really helpful.
Comment by Richard posted on
Is there a place, museum, whatever where old deeds no longer needed following registration can be sent?
Comment by AdamH posted on
Richard - not that I am aware of. You can approach a local museum or perhaps the County Records office but no guarantees either would want them
Comment by June posted on
I know I'm responding to an old query but my local town museum was interested in copying my older paperwork (typed - no fancy wax seals) as it showed the history of land sales and development within the town. I kept the original in case I ever do need it.
I also came across old conveyance/mortgage documents from the early/mid 1800s for a relative's cottage, long since sold, so I asked the local record office and library/archives section if they wanted it. Can't recall which now, but I think it was the record office who were pleased to take it into their collection. I did think of offering it to the current residents of the cottage but it seemed better to be in safekeeping for others to see.
Comment by keith waldman posted on
im doing my own conveyancing selling my house.will the buyers conveyancer accept a online copy of the official copy of register and copy of title plan instead of a paper version?
Comment by AdamH posted on
Keith - very much something for them to confirm for you
Comment by keith waldman posted on
So is it £7 for official copy of register and £7 for title plan or does £7 cover both.
Comment by AdamH posted on
Keith - £7 each
Comment by Nina duckers posted on
My son has inherited an house from my deceased uncle (which has been 3yrs since death) how does my son have to change the title deeds into his name to.prove ownership of the house
Regards
Nina
Comment by AdamH posted on
Nina - have a read of our short guide for help https://help.landregistry.gov.uk/app/contactus_bereavement?utm_medium=GOV.UK&utm_source=govuk&utm_campaign=death_contact_page_to_guide&utm_content=web_page
Comment by Hoi Hung Kong posted on
Dear Sir/Madam,
My sister has paid off her commercial mortgage around 7 weeks ago, she has received a letter from her mortgage lender stating the discharge documents have been forwarded to the relevant land registry for them to arrange the removal of legal charge, for confirmation that our interest in the property has been discharged, please contact the relevant land registry direct.
Is there an email address that I could contact to find out about the discharged or will the land registry send out a confirmation letter to her about it?
Comment by ianflowers posted on
Hello. The best way is to contact us using our online form giving the property details - https://www.gov.uk/guidance/contact-hm-land-registry . We'll then check and get back to you.
We wouldn't normally send out a confirmation letter to the borrower, but if the mortgage has now been cancelled from the title register then you can order a copy of that register from us online for £3 showing the property's title as mortgage free - https://www.gov.uk/search-property-information-land-registry .
Comment by Elspeth Loudon posted on
My dad built his own home in 1954. Title deed was in his name. some years later Mum and dad decided to add mum to the title deeds. They each own 1/2 share. Wills state everything will go to the other when each passes away. Solicitors have obtained title deeds for us but are saying title destination does not state who will receive dads 1/2 now he has died.
They have stated a Sherriff will have to confirm mum is to receive his 1/2 even though it said so in the will. Confused? why do we need a will ? this is now going to cost my mum over £1000 to obtain his 1/2 as it states in his will. The wills cost over £600 when they made them and were deemed by another solicitor to be of good quality when she checked them out.
Comment by AdamH posted on
Elspeth - is this a property in England or Wales? I ask as you refer to a 'sherriff' and I am not familiar with that position operating in such matters in England or Wales. Can you clarify that first please?
Comment by K Ashley posted on
Hi
I had a joint mortgage . My Husband and i separated 20 years ago [ not divorced still due to finding him] and he never made any contribution to the mortgage.
I paid the mortgage off 5 years ago [was over the 25 year term but some monies owed- i had to take a loan out ] I received a form to apply for the deeds but as it was a joint mortgage and stated people on the mortgage to sign and i haven't seen my ex i haven't applied for them.
Can i sell the house without the deeds myself?
Will i still be able to get the deeds or will they have been destroyed as not claimed?
Will the property be registered [if it is] in both our names?
I feel like i'm stuck!
Thanks
Comment by ianflowers posted on
Hi. The first thing to consider as you've mentioned is whether your property is already registered with us. You should be able to check this online and get a copy of the title record for £3 - https://www.gov.uk/get-information-about-property-and-land/search-the-register .
If it is, the electronic title record that we hold will give the position as to the outstanding mortgage and also whether you own the property with your husband as joint owners. As to what is needed to cancel the mortgage and receive the 'deeds' that something that you'd need to discuss further with the mortgage company involved. But generally speaking, that process may not need the consent or signature of both owners.
As to the deeds themselves, as mentioned in the blog if the property is registered with us, then we will hold the electronic title record. Then the deeds such as old conveyances would not be required to prove your ownership. If they are available, they may still be held by the lender and would be returned to you once the mortgage has been paid off.
As to selling the property, if the property is held in joint names, any sale/ transfer of ownership would require the involvement of both parties. If there are difficulties with this, you may want to consider seeking independent legal advice, from example, from Citizen's Advice or from a conveyancer such as a solicitor.
You can also contact us via our online form - https://www.gov.uk/guidance/contact-hm-land-registry giving the property details and we will then consider what procedural advice we can give which will be more specific to your particular situation.
Comment by kashley posted on
Hi
Thank you for this.
As stated no mortgage outstanding - all paid off 5 years ago.
I am not aware if registered so will apply for details.
I did register property with you for property alert in July this year- does that mean it's registered ?
Thank you
Comment by ianflowers posted on
Hi. Yes, if you have a property alert set up for the property concerned then it will be registered.
Comment by K Ashley posted on
Thank you for your help 🙂
Comment by Louise Norman posted on
Hi, we are in the process of buying a property. It hasn’t ever been registered as the owner has lived there for 40yrs. The solicitor is going to send in the application. Approximately how long is registration taking please?
Comment by AdamH posted on
Louise - the average timescale is around 34 working days at present. If there is a linked transaction such as a confirmed onward sale then the solicitor should provide those details/evidence and ask us to consider expediting their application. That can reduce the wait time to just a few weeks
Comment by Louise Norman posted on
The first registration application went in weeks ago. Are you able to check the progress of this please? (I can message you the post code privately).
Comment by ianflowers posted on
Louise - please use our form and we'll get back to you asap - https://bit.ly/2F6AtxU .
Comment by Louise Norman posted on
Hi Ian, the application went in around the 24th September (35 working days, last week). You mentioned the average is around 34 working days. However, the vendors solicitors has checked and been informed it could take 16 weeks! Why is there such a difference please? The solicitors are telling us that they have informed Land Registry that a sale is pending. 16 weeks can't be the expedited time.
Comment by AdamH posted on
Louise - the 34 working days is an average so some applications wait a little longer before they are considered. I am unsure why 16 weeks would have been quoted but some applications can take a lot longer depending on what checks/considerations have to be made. If there is anything unusual about this application you should as the seller's solicitor to confirm/advise.
Our records show that the solicitor did contact us regarding expediting the application in early October but this was refused. If your purchase is now confirmed I would suggest that they make a further request and provide evidence to confirm the purchase is to take place
Comment by Raymond Swalwell posted on
I am in possession of a letter from the Cheltenham and Gloucester (August 2015). Stating that on redemption of our mortage. "All documents are now held by the Land Registry"
Comment by AdamH posted on
Raymond - lenders have a wide variety of ways of trying to explain such matters to their customers but the article explains what we hold and how the register and title plan are stored electronically. All documents is a misleading statement and I suspect they mean All documents needed to confirm your ownership for example
Comment by Helen posted on
Hi I hope someone can help me. We are in the process of selling our house. We found out after the land searches have been done that half of the property is still in the previous owners name. We don’t know how this has happened. It’s been over a month since we told the solicitor who dealt with the sale and nothing has happened. We are going to loose the sale of house and just want some advice on what we can do
Comment by AdamH posted on
Helen - you very much need to rely on your conveyancer here as to next steps and advice on what to do. If the land is registered to a previous owner they will need to trace them and get them to transfer that ownership to them. How long that takes and what issues arise are ones only your conveyancer can assist you with.
Comment by SHARON SHARON JACKSON posted on
Why does a property not have a Title Number ?
How do i search for information on the land the house was built on if there are no deeds existing ?
Comment by ianflowers posted on
Sharon - Some properties are unregistered as there has not been a recent event such as a sale or mortgage which would trigger registration for the first time. We do not hold any information on unregistered land.
One of our other blogs: https://hmlandregistry.blog.gov.uk/2018/02/05/search-owner-unregistered-land/ gives more information and sets out some of the options open to you.
Comment by Still Confused posted on
Dear Adam, Ian and colleagues,
I have tried to get through all of the above exchanges and many of my questions have been answered, thanks.
However:
I have paid to download the leasehold title, and confirmed that it is almost identical to the copy I have from when I purchased the flat. It shows we own the leasehold of the flat and there is a mortgage charge against it. However, is this the same as "the Deeds"? I want to find out if the Land Registry has a copy of the Lease itself and/or a copy of the Floorplan of our flat. Which document(s) should I purchase or attempt to purchase to confirm this?
Apologies if this has been explained but I missed it or didn't understand.
Many thanks
Comment by AdamH posted on
Still C - once a property is registered the electronic record is essentially the 'title deed'. The term 'the deeds' is in my experience associated with how title or ownership was proven before registration, namely you had a pile of deeds, inc a lease in this case, and they were used to prove your ownership.
You can apply for a copy of the lease by post https://www.gov.uk/get-information-about-property-and-land/copies-of-deeds
Some leases contain floor plans but we would not register/record such plans in isolation. So if the lease does not include one then we won;t have a coy of a floor plan
Comment by Worried Estate Executor posted on
Will the Land Registry return an original Grant of Probate and death certificate once the paper work for registering a property had been completed?
Solicitor sent them without informing me that they might be kept and they are the only ones we have.
Comment by AdamH posted on
WEE - we do not retain these and they should be returned. The registration services you obtained them from issue official copies for use for official purposes and it is one of these people should use rather than the originals.
Comment by Madeleine M posted on
Hi
My late husband and I purchased our house outright as joint tenants in 1984. I now wish to register my ownership prior to downsizing. However I wish to keep my house deeds out of historical interest.
Your website states: "If applying for first registration, your application must consist entirely of:
original supporting documents; or
certified copy deeds and a conveyancer’s certificate",
and also states that original documents will be scanned and destroyed.
Does this mean if I want to keep the original documents I must pay a conveyancer / solicitor to certify the copies fill in the forms for me? This seems unfair to applicants in person.
Thanks for your answer.
Comment by ianflowers posted on
Hi. Our general guidance on first registrations is here in case you have not already seen this - https://www.gov.uk/registering-land-or-property-with-land-registry/register-for-the-first-time . We do require certified copies (a copy certified as a true copy of the original) to be lodged of certain documents in order to return the originals to you on completion of the application. These are:
• the latest document of title - usually the conveyance/transfer relating to your house purchase,
• any subsisting lease being registered,
• any subsisting mortgage being registered,
. any certificate relating to stamp duty land tax (SDLT)
• any relevant statutory declaration or statement of truth.
Any other documents will be returned to you on completion, even if you do not lodge a copy.
The requirement to see the original documents where no legal professional is acting is mainly to safeguard against fraud. Where a conveyancer is acting, different procedures do apply in that they can lodge only certified copy documents. This is because the accompanying conveyancer's certificate reflects that they are required to conduct identity and other checks of their client(s) as part of their professional responsibilities.
I hope this is helpful.
Comment by Madeleine M posted on
Thanks for your answer.
I understand your point about fraud and requiring sight of the original documents. However, the Land Registry's own blog (above) states, "It is a good idea to keep title deeds as they can provide extra information..."
That being so, why is it not possible to return the paper originals to an applicant in person when that person requests them and is willing to pay postage?
You say in your answer that documents will be returned but this contradicts your website which says that originals will be scanned and destroyed.
Regards,
Comment by ianflowers posted on
We do say it is a good idea to keep title deeds and provided copies of the documents I have referred to accompany the originals supplied on first registration, we will return the originals by post to the person lodging the application once it is completed. On updates to an existing register no pre-registration deeds will be lodged and therefore our practice differs and originals may be scanned and destroyed in some circumstances. But this does not affect first registration applications as I have mentioned.
Comment by Madeleine M posted on
Thanks.
Comment by Mayuor Patel posted on
Thank you for this information.
cthomebuysolutions.com
Comment by Rusk posted on
We recently paid back in full our lender who offered to discharge the details of the loan from the Title Register/charge register,with the Land Registry since the fee to do this was included in the original loan agreement. However, before we agree to them to remove the charge, what document, if any held by the Land Registry will show exactly how much we borrowed against the property? I did send this enquiry by email but am fed up with waiting for a reply and hanging on to the phone because the Land Registry is experiencing a high volume of calls.
Comment by ianflowers posted on
Rusk - I am sorry that you have not received a reply to your previous contacts. Our role is to register the interest and we do not normally have any involvement in the financial side of things. So the register will refer to the mortgage date, usually whether that mortgage secures further advances and the details of the lender, but not the amount owed. This is sometimes contained in the charge/mortgage document itself but more usually in the loan agreement(s).
Comment by Rusk posted on
Thanks for your reply. You have said "This is sometimes contained in the charge/mortgage document itself but more usually in the loan agreement(s)." So, to clarify, the building society or bank doesn't send you specifics of the amount of the charge at any time and there would be no record of that amount anywhere at the land registry? The reason for checking is that I am almost certain that previously there used to be the amount of the charge recorded.
Comment by ianflowers posted on
You're welcome. As mentioned, the charge amount may be shown in the charge document but this is not usual. This varies according the mortgage lender and perhaps historically, it was more common for the amount to be entered. The amount of charge may also appear on the application form when the charge is registered, for example, on the form the AP1. But again that is not particularly common as the charge will usually be lodged with other transactions, such as a transfer of ownership, and then the charge amount will not be needed for the assessment of our fees.
Comment by Rusk posted on
Thanks for replying further to my enquiry. However I have looked into the Land Registry forms that would have applied to our loan. This was a re-mortgage, not a purchase and did not involve a first registration of the property. I surmise from this that when the lender registered the charge with the LR they would have used forms AP1 and CH1. On the latter document in panel 9 they were required to fulfil the amount as directed in panel 7. Is it possible to retrieve a copy of the CH1 that the lender registered with yourselves/
Comment by ianflowers posted on
We should hold a copy of any CH1 registered. You'd need to apply by post on form OC2 and a fee of £7 will be payable. Please see our guidance on GOV.UK - https://www.gov.uk/get-information-about-property-and-land/copies-of-deeds .
Comment by Kath posted on
We paid cash for a new build property about 10 months ago, and have received a completion of registration form quoting our title number. We would like to obtain paper copies of whatever constitutes our "title deeds". I've printed off form OC2 but I'm unsure how to complete part 7 which asks me to list the documents I'm requesting copies of, as it states if I put "Any" or "All' the application will be rejected. Could you advise what documents would normally be requested when someone wants a copy of their deeds? I'd like to be sure I've completed the form correctly and haven't missed out any relevant documents. Many thanks.
Comment by ianflowers posted on
Kath - the deeds as far as we are concerned would usually constitute the title register (including information as to the current owner), the title plan - showing the general extent of the property and a copy of any deeds or documents referred to as filed on the title register. In addition to this, there'd be the documents returned on the completion of the registration application, usually to the solicitors acting. Plain copies of the title register and plan can be obtained online for £3 each. Or if official copies are required, you'd need to apply by post on form OC1 and this attracts a fee of £7 each.
The form OC2 you've mentioned is for applying for any copies of deeds referred to as 'filed' on the register. So details of any such deed would go into part 7. The fee is £7 per document/deed. Please also see our guidance - https://www.gov.uk/search-property-information-land-registry and https://www.gov.uk/get-information-about-property-and-land/copies-of-deeds .
Comment by Robert Guinn posted on
My parents have their original title deeds dating back to 1971 when they purchased the property from the council.
The council have subsequently agreed to sell property on their estate to Network Housing, who now claim that my parents have built an extension to their property on Network Housing Property (The extension was built in 1974 with full planning consent within the property demise indicated in the deeds).
My parents have never registered their property with Land Registry. Network Housing are claiming that the deeds are not proof of ownership and registration may not even help
Comment by ianflowers posted on
Robert - As the property has not been registered with us we will not hold any information. Regarding the planning consent, this obviously falls under the responsibility of the local authority, but it is important to mention that planning approval and the registration of legal title are separate and distinct processes.
The unregistered house deeds do indicate proof of ownership in general terms. What may be in doubt is whether the deeds show the extent of the property with sufficient certainty to resolve the issue with Network Housing. They are correct to say that registration of the land may not help directly as once registered, our title plans show general boundaries only, meaning that the exact position of the legal boundary line is left undefined.
Other legal issues may come into play, for example, adverse possession (commonly referred to as squatter's rights), where title to land (for example, the whole or part of the land where the extension is situated) has been gained by possession over a number of years rather than by title deeds. This is a complex area of the law and we would suggest the parties involved consider seeking legal advice, for example, from Citizen's Advice or from a conveyancer, such as a solicitor, if they are unsure of the legal position and how to proceed.
Comment by darren posted on
can someone tell me what happens and how to proceed, there is a small parcel of land that I know has never been built on and has been basically waste land for past 40 years ie not maintained by anyone,land registry don't have it on file and its not in their index the land next to is on the register but it isn't part of that land there are houses built opposite to this land. how do you find the owner what if it isn't owned by anyone how can you find out?
Comment by ianflowers posted on
Darren - as you've referred to, we do not hold any information on unregistered land, but please see the following blog which gives some possible alternative sources of information: https://hmlandregistry.blog.gov.uk/2018/02/05/search-owner-unregistered-land/
Comment by darren posted on
thabnks for the reply i have been to land registry
land registry do not have this land in their index ,
Comment by Anand posted on
Hi,
I have downloaded a copy of the title register and plan to my house and can see my property within the red lines. I am trying to determine exact boundaries and understand that the older paper deeds may have more information on measurements etc. (the online title plan appears to be a 1/1250 scale map). The title register says "The Freehold land shown edged with red on the plan of the above Title filed at the Registry and being []"
There is no mention of any other title deeds being "filed at" at the Registry. Is the reference to "plan of the above Title" the same as "Title Deeds"?
Also, in the Form OC2, there is a section for documents referred to in the title register and those not. Should I ask for a copy of:
- the "plan of the above Title" in the section of Form OC2 requesting documents referred to in the register and section; and
- a copy of the "Title Deeds" in the section of Form OC2 requesting documents not referred to in the register?
Thank you in advance for your help.
Comment by ianflowers posted on
Hi. It may assist to read our other blog: https://hmlandregistry.blog.gov.uk/2018/02/27/drawing-the-line-on-boundaries/ as it explains that our title plans show general boundaries which means that the precise position of the legal boundary line is left undefined. It also links to our general guidance in this area. The plan of the above title refers to the title plan.
If there are no title documents referred to as 'filed' in the register then it unlikely that we we hold any deeds which will show the boundary with more precision. Even where there are deeds filed they usually contain large scale plans which again only show the boundaries general position. Occasionally deed plans will refer to measurements but using this to determine the boundary position more precisely can be problematic for the reasons given in the blog referred to.
There are other options in this area as referred to here: https://www.gov.uk/your-property-boundaries#legalboundaries . But they invariably require the agreement of the neighbour affected.
Comment by linda posted on
We bought land some years ago, it was then registered in our name. We subsequently built our house with all the relevant planning permissions etc.
My deeds only show the land and boundary as being owned by us, but when I did a search for my property on here, using our postcode, the house was listed along with others in the village.How do the land registry hold the house information ( house name and postcode) even though we never thought to add the house onto the land title deeds?
Confused.com
Comment by ianflowers posted on
Linda - I should firstly mention that we register ownership and other interests in land rather than the buildings on it. The title register is created with a unique title number when a property is first registered with us and will include a property description which will be based on the most up to date information we have available at the time. This sources local authority, Royal Mail and Ordnance Survey address information and data. This address tends not to be updated unless we receive an application to do so.
We you search with us by address this accesses our Property Gazetteer which provides a link between the registered title number, Ordnance Survey mapping information and current address data incorporating Royal Mail’s Postcode Address File (PAF). So even though the register / deeds may not refer to the postal address, when searching, the Property Gazetter enables the searcher to link the address with the title number based on the information referred to.
I hope this is helpful.
Comment by J Wilson posted on
I have just phoned the building society that I have (had) my mortgage with for the last 18 years as I have received a letter from the Land a Registry to tell me the Building Society have contacted them to say I have paid off my mortgage. Interestingly I am yet to be informed of the fact by my building society, which I am not impressed with.
On enquiring when they intended to let me know & return my property deeds I was told that they posted them to me by first class post 5 days ago. Being concerned that they haven’t arrived & asking if they were sent by registered mail I was informed, in an extremely condescending manner, that “paper property deeds are just a novelty these days”..... I was horrified to hear that this is how they perceive my deeds & wonder if you agree with this comment?
I am left, for the first time, feeling as if I’ve just been ticked off for being a stupid old woman!! Not only that but my deeds, which I thought were secure, may well have disappeared in the post.
Comment by ianflowers posted on
I am sorry to hear of the difficulties you have experienced. As mentioned in the blog, the register and title plan for your property held by us in computerised format are your proof of ownership. Any original or copy pre-registration conveyancing deeds that existed are generally returned to the solicitor acting at the time of first registration. As mentioned in the blog, where a property is bought after being registered for the first time, the pre-registration deeds may or may not be handed over to the new buyer making them very difficult to trace in some circumstances.
It would not be appropriate for us to comment on the actions of a third party such as the mortgage lender, but you may want to contact them to establish their policy and procedures for dealing with any property deeds in their possession.
Comment by Jo posted on
Hello posted application OC2 for title plan and register documents for some properties today but can't see anywhere a reference as to how long it will take to get these? Thanks
Comment by ianflowers posted on
Jo - We complete these types of application in 2-3 days on average. I should mention that OC1 is the correct form to apply for an official copy of the title plan, with OC2 being the form for official copies of the documents that we hold. If you have requested register documents that are not referred to as 'filed' in the register, then these may be held in paper format and consequently there might be a short delay due to us needing to call for paper files.
Comment by Jo posted on
Hi Ian thanks for your response. Confused re OC1. Does that mean we have to send that for the title plan with that form also then? I filled in the OC2 requesting 'title property plan' and 'title property register' and sent company cheque £14.( I think in the short form doc I got from the land registry previously for £3 does refer to properties being 'filed'). (We need a copy of the original docs because HSBC have helpfully 'lost' the original deeds - which seems to be becoming quite a common phenomenon!)
Comment by ianflowers posted on
Hi. Please see our general guidance on GOV.UK which explains what is available and the appropriate form - https://www.gov.uk/get-information-about-property-and-land/search-the-register . Essentially the title register and title plan that we hold in computerised format constitute your proof of ownership and the form OC1 would apply for official copies of those documents. But as you have already applied on the OC2, it would be best to wait to hear from us.
The register as you refer to might also reference a document(s) / deed(s) as 'filed'. These documents are not required to prove ownership, but customers can apply for an official copy in form OC2 paying £7 per document.
Comment by Liz Lewin posted on
Hi, really hoping you can help. I'm trying to purchase a house with 2 different issues. First one is the garage at the end of the garden is on unregistered land. Sellers have applied to LR for possessory title and for it to be expedited. Mortgage people happy with this as ling as there is an indemnity policy with it also. Issue no.2 which i'm struggling to understand. The property is freehold but the title register shows the sellers as having title absolute on the freehold however there is also a lease sitting there. The sellers can't prove they own the leasehold as no deeds. They have a copy of the lease itself. My solicitor is saying all they actually own is the ground rent and not the actual property. Unless they can come up with the deeds the sale can't go through. They say LR will not be happy with an indemnity policy unless they have a possessory title of the leasehold. Surely as the property has a title number this proves ownership of the house? My solicitor insists they don't own the property just the ground rent. Sellers solicitor doesn't see what the problem is. I am at a total loss. Both solicitors are just emailing each other taking days to reply with no progress. If I gave you the title number can you look at it and tell me if you agree all the sellers own is the ground rent please?
Comment by ianflowers posted on
Liz - Hi. I am sorry to hear of the difficulties you have experienced. We essentially have an administrative role in registering ownership and other interests in land once the respective transactions have been completed. So we wouldn't be involved in decisions such as indemnity insurance which would made during exchange / completion and prior to an application being made to us.
From the information your have given, it appears that the seller's own the freehold but there is an unregistered lease noted on that freehold title. Freehold and leasehold titles are separate and distinct and so if a third party did in fact have title to the leasehold then the value of the freehold would obviously be impacted by this. This may be what your solicitor means by the freeholder owning the ground rent as they would be subject to and bound by the terms of the lease.
It is really something to discuss further with your solicitor and ultimately all parties will have to reach an agreement if the sale is to proceed. We will register any application we receive on its merits, for example, if we receive a transfer of ownership of the freehold title, we will register that if in order and the noted lease will simply remain on the register.
Comment by Sherry posted on
Hello,
my husband and I bought a house that was on leasehold in 2005. We later purchased the freehold land from the owner in 2006.
we got the registered documentation/deed but I never really read it. Now we are looking to sell our property and see there is an error on the registration.
What can we do to correct this 12 years later?
thanks
Comment by AdamH posted on
Sherry - what's the error?
Comment by Sherry Ragoo-Martin posted on
this restriction is on the property register:
RESTRICTION: No disposition by a sole proprietor of the registered estate (except a trust corporation) under which capital money arises is to be registered unless authorised by an order of the court.
Why is this clause here? I am thinking it is an error.
thanks
Comment by AdamH posted on
Sherry - that is a form A restriction and it can be registered in a number of scenarios. They are rarely registered in error but if you wish to confirm why and how it was registered I would suggest completing our online contact form with the specific details and our support team can check and email you back https://help.landregistry.gov.uk/app/contactus_general/?utm_medium=newsletter&utm_source=govuk&utm_campaign=death_contact_page_to_contact_form&utm_content=web_page
Comment by Sherry posted on
thanks AdamH
I will do that
appreciate the advice
Comment by Fiona McGuire posted on
Hi
just enquiring my elderly aunt is getting her affairs in order and informs me as she has me named as an executor in her will , that hsbc /midland has her deeds since the mortgage was paid off years ago.
knowing how banks frequently lose deeds where would I stand after her demise on selling her house without the original deeds I know this sounds awful enquiring now but she is getting very confused and need to know if she needs to do anything about the house deeds now or if I will be able to sort it out after the inevitable Fiona
Comment by AdamH posted on
Fiona - I assume you have checked or have had it confirmed that the property is unregistered. If so then our PG 2 explains what will be required to register if the deeds were lost https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/first-registration-of-title-where-deeds-have-been-lost-or-destroyed
If you are concerned then I would encourage you/her to make an application to register the property now and remove such concerns https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/first-registrations
Comment by Mo posted on
Hi there
I am currently buying a property and approaching exchange of contracts. I've been reading about various conveyancing matters as a result...
One of the things I've read about is the Priority Search but I'm a bit confused as to what this is and wondered if you are able to explain?
I'd also like to say how informative and helpful all of the replies on here are. It's great to see 🙂
Cheers
Comment by AdamH posted on
Mo - a priority search effectively confirms whether any changes have been made to the register from the search from date onwards. And it also gives you a 30 day priority period within which to submit your application. That priority period will usually prevent any other application submitted after the OS1 and before your own application being registered until your's has been completed. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/official-searches-and-outline-applications
Comment by Anne posted on
I have a copy of my title deeds from Land Registry. On Section B: Proprietorship Register no - Title absolute no.1 I am listed as proprietor. no.2 lists the price paid. no.3 Restriction: No disposition of the registered estate by the proprietor of the registered estate is to be registered without written consent signed by the Secretary of State for Transport or his conveyancer that the provisions of the Schedule within the Transfer dated 20 June 2007 have been complied with.
I do not know what the restrictions refer to. I wrote to Highways England - Land Enquiries over 7 weeks ago and due to their volume of work, I can't expect a reply within at least 12 weeks. Have I contacted the right people for clarification on this disposition, or do I have to try and get the full title deeds from my mortgage lender? Reading the previous replies you have given, it might not be possible to obtain full title deeds. Thank you.
Comment by AdamH posted on
Anne - the register and copy of the 2007 Transfer should be sufficient for you to establish who the right people are to contact
https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/department-for-transport
Comment by Margaret posted on
Margaret having just finished paying my mortgage off the building society has has sent me a letter stating that I have no paper deeds. However I fully believed that my deeds were being safely stored as a security against my mortgage. These deeds have a long history which I Having been looking forward to reading. I feel as though my rights have been violated the building society claim that the land registry requested them back. Who do those deeds belong too.
Comment by AdamH posted on
Margaret - the word 'deeds' can mean different things to different people depending on the context. It may help to add a bit of background to that starting with how all properties were once owned and the owner(s) relied on a series of old deeds/documents to prove that ownership. The key deeds were the Conveyances from one seller to a buyer and so on so you had a series of deeds showing how the property had changed hands over the years.
Land registration was then introduced over a period of time starting with London, then including other major cities and eventually whole districts/areas. The bulk of that registration started in the 60's through until the 90s when the whole of England & Wales was subject to compulsory registration the next time an unregistered property was sold/bought
Registration meant lodging those original deeds/documents with us, we created a register/title plan and a copy of both in the form of a Land Certificate (Charge Certificate if there was a mortgage) and issued that to the applicant along with the original deeds/documents. The Land/Charge Certificates also became known as title deeds or deeds as a result.
On a mortgaged property pre 2000 the lender would often hold the original deeds/documents and Charge Certificate as security - the owner would need the Charge Certificate (not the original deeds/documents) to prove ownership and hand over to any new buyer
So IF you had a mortgage of some age then the lender may have been holding those original deeds/documents. When it was paid off/redeemed many lenders would send in the Charge Certificate to be destroyed as since 2000 we no longer produce such certificates. At no point will they have sent us the original deeds/documents and we would not have requested these.
You don;t state when you bought the property or what 'deeds' you were given at the time. That would be key to knowing what your lender had held and for how long. For example if you bought an already registered property then the seller may not have had the original deeds/documents or if they did they may not have handed them over. As it was registered there was no need.
As to who do they belong to - I would suggest the registered owner but you would have to check with your lender as to what they held when you took out the mortgage and what their policy was when we stopped producing the certificates and they decided there was no need for them to hold anything as security
Comment by Michael Isherwood posted on
Hello Adam I bought my house in 1989/1990 cash and the oridginal deeds was given to me. The deeds were so interesting, they were like a big scroll with wax seals and the names of all the owners dating from wene the house was first built in 1865 and the names were all related until I bought it.
The problem I have is that I've just been told that my deeds could have been destroyed after been copied onto electronic copies to save on space.
I'm now going to contact the solicitors to see if this is the case. If not I'm going to take them back.
If they have destroyed them I think it's totally out of order.
MIKE
Comment by ianflowers posted on
Michael - I am replying as Adam is currently unavailable. I presume the solicitors have been holding the deeds for safekeeping and you have not mortgaged the property during your ownership. If this is the case, hopefully they will still be available, but obviously something to discuss with those solicitors as you have mentioned.
Comment by June posted on
When we paid off our mortgage, our provider returned all documents relating to our property, stating that the Land Registry held electronic copies.
We were sent some documents in a binder entitled HM Land Registry Charge Certificate. The house is an ex-council house and some entries refer to the year when the council sold the house to the tenant at the time, in 1964.
In addition to this, we were sent another document - an original typed document with the cover stating: 1964 Abstract of the Title of (local authority name) to land situate at (relevant roads).
The document lists a chain of land sales from 1867 onwards, including the sale of a large parcel of farm land in the 1930s to the local authority. But the very last sentence of this document refers to a conveyance in 1955 between this local authority and an individual relating to a single council house - which is not our address, or even in our street, but is on the same housing estate. However the outline map with this document correctly shows the location of our plot.
If the Land Registry holds a copy of this document, is it possible to ask for it to be deleted, since it does not in fact relate to our house? Presumably no-one noticed when we bought the house, or perhaps this document is not important in any case? I don't want any hiccups with a discrepancy when it comes to selling.
Comment by AdamH posted on
June - if it genuinely formed part of the Abstract as supplied then we would not now amend it. However if the 'extra' detail does not relate to your property and/or is not specifically referred to on the title register then it is unimportant as it does not directly affect and would be read as such
Comment by Diane Lawson posted on
We purchased our house in September but looking at the title deeds it still has the previous owners mortgage showing on the deeds, is this something we should be concerned about. Solicitors are being a little vague and saying they are sorting it. Should I be concerned?
Comment by AdamH posted on
Diane - in some cases a new owner will be registered in this way as the seller's lender has yet to submit the evidence we require to remove their mortgage. Invariably that comes through in a week or so and as such there is rarely anything to be concerned about as it's a delayed process issue with the lender. Concerns arise of course where there is an issue between the seller/lender re the monies owed but hopefully that is not the case here but only they or your solicitor would be aware
Comment by Ian Moore posted on
Hi, how do i know if HM registry actually hold copies of my deeds ( as in all of them?) contacted my lender who sate they don't have them. The firm of solicitors that dealt with my purchase in 2007 no longer exist. I obtained a copy of the 'full register' for title number WYK140544 a couple of years ago but it is limited in detail and i specifically wanted information regarding the following that shows 'original filed' ( however i could do with all entries relating to this title.)
(05.09.2001) The land has the benefit of but is subject to the rights
granted by a Deed dated 24 August 2001 made between (1) Ronald Keith
Moore and Norma Moore (2) Reginald Ruckledge and Mary Elizabeth
Ruckledge and (3) Steven John Robinson and Denise Robinson.
NOTE: Original filed.
Any help would be greatly appreciated. Cheers !!
Comment by AdamH posted on
Ian - as the blog explains we don't have the original title deeds. Any lodged when the property was first registered will have gone back to the original applicant. Whilst they can be handed over with each sale that rarely happens as once the title is registered they are not needed to prove ownership
If you want a copy of the 2001 Deed as mentioned then you can apply for a copy by post using the link in the article
Comment by Ivan Spore posted on
Am I entitled to see the deeds of a property I hope to purchase before I obtain a mortgage or engage a solicitor etc
Comment by AdamH posted on
Ivan - the register is an 'open' one so yes you can search for and then view, download and save the details online ro apply by post for a copy as appropriate https://www.gov.uk/get-information-about-property-and-land
Comment by Ivan posted on
AdamH,
Many thanks for your reply, most helpful.
Comment by Roger Adley posted on
My house is made up of two 19th/20th century cottages and later extensions.
My building society had no documents to hand over on completion.
I would like to know more about its history and when it was built for insurance purposes.
I have an official copy of register of title and plans but is there any way of finding out about the titles of the properties that made up the current title and the history of the property.
Many thanks
Roger
Comment by AdamH posted on
Roger - we don't register the history I'm afraid as explained in one of our other blogs which may help you https://hmlandregistry.blog.gov.uk/?s=how+old
Comment by Frank Ralston posted on
My uncle who is eighty five years old lodged his deeds with a high street bank in 1992, he now wants them back. The bank have informed him that they are lost, they will refund him all the fees paid and will cover the costs for copies to be supplied.
I have been in touch with the Land Registry Office, they have informed me that the property is not registered with them. I was also told that it would be easier to solve this problem if the bank involved made the request, can you confirm that this is correct as they don’t seem very happy about it.
I would appreciate any advice you could give me.
Frank
Comment by AdamH posted on
Frank - if it is unregistered and the deeds lost then our Practice Guide 2 is your starting point as to how to now register it. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/first-registration-of-title-where-deeds-have-been-lost-or-destroyed
As you will see from the guidance we will need someone to provide a statement of truth/statutory declaration as to what has happened to the deeds and more. The 'best' person to provide that is someone with the full facts. Whilst that might be the bank I suspect it may well be your Uncle. But do have a read of the guidance and I'd also recommend seeking legal advice
Comment by Frank Ralston posted on
Adam - Thank you so much for your advice. I have spoken to the bank manager again, whereas previously he was quite helpful, he now wants to split hairs. He is now saying how do the bank know that the envelope contained deeds, my uncle is certain that it was the bank that supplied the envelope. I was left with the feeling that he does not want to give a statement of truth, what would the position be if I am correct.
Frank
Comment by AdamH posted on
Frank - the position does not really change, only the facts do and who is willing to confirm them. The key with all such things is what you have in writing as well as what you remember. If you do not have anything in writing from the bank that mentions the deeds and their holding them then you may have to consider doing this yourself.
PG 2 sets out what details we are likely to need so it is a case of establishing the facts and ensuring that they meet those requirements. If they don;t you may need to ask the bank specific questions in writing, the answers to which you can then rely on
Comment by Frank Ralston posted on
Thank you Adam, I will follow your advice.
Frank.
Comment by Katharine Vlachos posted on
I wonder if you could help me with the following: My mother sold property in London (a flat) in the late '90s. She claims to have no 'official' record of the transaction. We now need formal proof this sale (date, amount, etc from a state authority, since we live abroad and need to demonstrate the provenance of the money she received from this sale). But we have no idea where to start looking for such documentation. Do you know where we should make enquiries? Thank you so much for any advice you could provide.
Comment by AdamH posted on
Katharine - if you complete our online contact form with the specific details then we can check on what records we hold and advise you how to apply for copies as appropriate https://help.landregistry.gov.uk/app/contactus_general/?utm_medium=newsletter&utm_source=govuk&utm_campaign=death_contact_page_to_contact_form&utm_content=web_page
Comment by Mr JJ O'Reilly posted on
The Parish Council recently made a change to my address by adding a road name which subsequently led to the Royal Mail making a further alteration to my post code. Will these changes need to incorporated into my title deeds of my property.
Comment by ianflowers posted on
Mr O-Reilly - They will need to be incorporated at some stage if your property is registered with us. This might be done when you sell or mortgage the property and the conveyancer/solicitor acting can then include the request in their application to change the register. The main reason to get the changes made now would be if any communication which we may need to send you using the old address recorded in the register is likely to go astray due to using that old address.
If you decide to apply now you can do this by letter and this should supported by a letter from the parish council / local authority authorising the change together with any other available evidence. This should be sent to HM Land Registry Citizen Centre, PO Box 74, Gloucester GL14 9BB.
Comment by Jane Buck posted on
We bought our house in 2007. The house was left to a charity, as no surviving family. The deeds for the house were lost and the charity took out an indemnity insurance for us. It has now been over 10 years, can we upgrade to title absolute? And what would be the fee involved? Thankyou.
Comment by ianflowers posted on
Jane- Please see our Practice Guide 42 which explains the process - https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/upgrading-the-class-of-title . The guide is written for legal professionals and may therefore contain some unfamiliar terms. Section 3.2.1 covers upgrading a possessory title after lapse of time. As referred to in the guide, a fixed fee is payable - this would be £40 where the upgrade is the only application being lodged.
Comment by Wayne Redler posted on
I purchased my council property under the right to buy scheme on 1st July 2018, but have to this date still not received my deeds or any paperwork apart from the mortgage repayments, question is, is how long does this normally take?
Thanks for reading
Comment by ianflowers posted on
Wayne - This type of application is currently taking 52 working days on average, from the date the application was lodged with us for registration. Some applications will take longer, particularly if the application is not in order and we need to raise a query with the solicitor acting. If there was a solicitor acting for you in the sale, they would be best placed give you an update if needed.
Comment by Marika Fityo posted on
Hi
I hope you can help me. My parents bought their house in 1972 and the mortgage was repaid when my father died in 1979. The title deeds were kept at the bank in safekeeping. Recently my mother is trying to put her finances etc in order and checked with the bank in respect of the title deeds as they had been transferred to another one of their banks when a few were being closed down. The bank cannot find any trace of the title deeds or any trace that there was a mortgage/account after searching by name and DOB. They have told her that she needs to produce a blue paper that was provided in 1972. Panic has now set in. What can we do?
Comment by ianflowers posted on
Marika - Hi, I am sorry to hear of the difficulties you and your family have experienced. I take it that the property has never been registered with us? In which case we won't hold any information on the whereabouts of the deeds. If you're happy to give us the name/number and post code of the property then we can check if it's registered if this in doubt.
As to the bank, that would be something that you need to pursue with them / the parties involved and follow their complaint procedure if needed. I'm not sure what they mean by blue paper. They may be asking for evidence that that your parents held an account with them / deposited the deeds?
As mentioned in the blog, if the property is not registered and the deeds have been lost, then the process for first registration is more involved - https://bit.ly/2JFDRmb. Those involved may want to consider getting independent advice, for example from Citizen's Advice or from a legal professional such as solicitor.
Comment by Marika Fityo posted on
Hi Ian
I done a search on the website and found the title number and it’s definitely registered in the name of my parents and paid for a copy of this along with a copy of the plan. Would this mean that I would be able to locate an official copy from yourselves for my parents as the bank is adamant they’ve never had them and cannot find anything in my late fathers name or my mothers name. Thankyou
Comment by AdamH posted on
Marika - an official copy will confirm the exact same details but is usually only required to prove ownership to a third party, say in a court. Whilst their mortgage lender may have held something similar it's unlikely they do now and they don't need the original deeds/documents, as the blog explains, to prove their ownership.
Comment by H A HUBBLE posted on
Thanks for an interesting and informative post.
My aged parents bought their house circa 1955. The mortgage long paid off and they have their deeds in their possession, handed back at a bank branch closure. The property ownership has not changed hands since.
Having done a search of their property address from your blog’s link I see that ‘Tenure’ and other additional information is showing N/A.
Should I consider they have never registered ownership with HM Land Registry? I think at their ages, 102 & 89, they are concerned about just having the deeds in a ‘sideboard drawer’.
Your advice would be welcomed.
Comment by ianflowers posted on
Thank you for your kind comment. Yes, it seems likely that the house has not been registered with us. There would probably have been no compulsion to register at the time they bought the house circa 1955.
It is a decision for the parties involved, but there are benefits of voluntary registration one of which is that once registered, the deeds do not have to be produced on any sale and so it is of less importance if they are lost or stolen. Please see our general guidance on GOV.UK - https://www.gov.uk/registering-land-or-property-with-land-registry/register-for-the-first-time .
This can be a quite an involved process for those who have not made such an application before, and so many will get a conveyancer, such as a solicitor, to act on their behalf.
Comment by H A Hubble posted on
Many thanks for your reply.
Do I understand therefore that it is not simply a case of sending their deeds to an office of H M Land Registry somewhere?
Comment by ianflowers posted on
You're welcome. Yes, it is more involved that just sending in the deeds. An application in form FR1 is required, accompanied by the appropriate fee (a reduced fee is payable for voluntary applications). The link I provided to our guidance on GOV.UK should give you an idea of what's involved. As mentioned, the process is quite detailed and many owners will get a legal professional to act on their behalf but there is no requirement to do so.
Comment by H A HUBBLE posted on
Many thanks.
Comment by Jessica posted on
We recently bought a Victorian freehold house, in London. There is a (smallish) mortgage on the property. Our conveyancing solicitor is currently holding the deeds in their safe (they are based in Kent). They've asked us if we want to continue keeping our deeds with them, or whether we'd like to 'collect them'. We are miles away and have no time to travel to Kent! Moreover, we don't like the idea of solicitors holding deeds, in case that company were to dissolve, one day.
Do we not have the right to request they post them out to us via courier (we would pay for this service)?
All seems rather archaic - have bought property several times in this city and always held my own deeds.
Thank you.
Comment by ianflowers posted on
Jessica - As you have recently bought the property I'll assume that the property is registered with us and the deeds you refer to are the pre-registration deeds and documents that are returned by us on first registration.
We essentially have an administrative role in registering ownership and other interests in land and cannot comment the process for handling and retaining deeds that we have returned. If you want to pursue this, you will need to continue to do so with the solicitor involved. The following Law Society page may be of use to you in this regard: https://www.lawsociety.org.uk/for-the-public/using-a-solicitor/complaints/ .
Comment by Gail posted on
My parents made a deed of gift to my husband and I of a piece of land that they owned in 1980. This was all done by solicitors and we have the original deeds to verify this. We then obtained planning permission and built our property on the land in 1981/82 which we have lived in ever since (37 years).
We have all the original land deeds plus the planning permission granted and building completion certificate. We also have the mortgage offer from Lloyds bank from 1981/82. The mortgage was paid off in full in the 1990's (I have documents to verify this)
They subsequently gifted a further piece of land to us in order to extend our garden in the 1990's (completed by solicitors) for which we have all the relevant paperwork.
They then sold their large, adjacent property and horticultural business in 2003 and gifted another piece of land to us (again using solicitors) for which we also have the relevant paperwork.
We then built an annexe extension onto our property for them to live in but did not require a mortgage to do this. They then lived in the annexe for 15 years. Again, we have the planning consents etc.
My mother passed away 4 years ago and my father continued to live in the annexe but now has advanced alzheimers disease and has moved into full-time residential care.
The property is now too large for just my husband and I so we have decided to sell. Our agent has asked for proof of ownership so I looked on the Land Registry website to find that our original piece of land from 1980 has never been registered and the only things that are registered are the piece of land gifted as an extension to our garden in the 1990's and the piece of land gifted in 2003 on which we built the annexe extension.
None of the property is registered.
How do we proceed to get our property and full plot of land registered in order to provide our agent with proof of ownership?
Comment by AdamH posted on
Gail - you'll need to apply for first registration and I'd recommend that you use a conveyancer to do so https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/first-registrations
Comment by Wayne posted on
Thank you for your helpful Blog.
What happens if paper deeds have different information to what you have on file?
For example; a couple decide to buy a "right to buy" property from the council. A solicitor handles the conveyancing and paperwork and everything is in both names - but your records only show one name on the register.
Now imagine that couple separate years later and it's discovered that your register is incorrect. (meaning - the intention all along was for both parties to be registered owners, the physical paperwork/deeds state this, the mortgage agreement states this, but the land registry does not)
If the couple were still together, I imagine this would be a simple case of updating your register, but now they're not together, it has created an ownership dispute.
In a dispute like this, which holds more weight, the original paperwork, or your register?
Comment by AdamH posted on
Wayne - depends on which one is correct. You refer to 'everything in both names' but then mention that the 'intention all along was....'. My reading of that would be that it can't be both and the devil is always in the detail. Clearly something was 'wrong' but that invariably means the question is one of cause and effect of that error. The registration aspect is usually very clear cut, namely if the Transfer was to a sole name then that's the legal deed/legal outcome. If the intention was for both names but that did not happen then the error occurred when the conveyancing was done and not when the registration of that Transfer took place.
So the registered details hold more weight if accurate based on the Transfer submitted and registered. If however we erred and registered a sole name when the Transfer stated both names then the register is wrong and the deed carries more weight and the register should be corrected. The after effect of that is whether the parties or others lost out as a result of the registration mistake.
Comment by Leon posted on
Thankyou for the useful information. My parents own there house, unfortunatly my Dad is quite ill and has to go into care.
We are trying to arrange his finances but have had no luck finding the deeds for the house.
They are not digitally registered and were not even sure who the morgage lender was.
What is the next course of action for us to take to prove ownership?
Comment by ianflowers posted on
Leon - I am sorry to hear of your father's ill health. It would be worth checking to make sure the property has never been registered with us if there is any doubt. You can contact us to enquire about this - https://www.gov.uk/guidance/contact-hm-land-registry , but you may have to lodge a form SIM to get this confirmed. You might also consider getting some independent advice on checking the whereabouts of the deeds, for example, from Citizen's Advice or from a conveyancer such as a solicitor.
If the property is not registered and the deeds cannot be traced, our Practice Guide 2 explains the process for first registration - https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/first-registration-of-title-where-deeds-have-been-lost-or-destroyed/practice-guide-2-first-registration-of-title-if-deeds-are-lost-or-destroyed . The Guide is written for legal professionals and may there contain some unfamiliar terms. As you'll see, the process is quite involved and usually involves a legal professional acting on the owner's behalf.
Comment by Emma Dudfield posted on
I am in the process of buying a house with no title deeds the executor and family of their deceased mother are currently gathering evidence that their late mother owned the house by obtaining information from The Swindon Building Society so that they can apply for a possessory title. I have been advised by my solicitor that this could take up to 8 weeks and as I'm due to move out of my house in 3 weeks am a bit worried to say the least.... Do the LR have a system in place to fast track applications for deeds when there is a sale involved?
Kind regards
Emma
Comment by AdamH posted on
Emma - the lodging solicitor can submit details of the confirmed sale and ask us to expedite their first registration. That will shorten the wait time between receipt and consideration to around 2 weeks. Everything then depends on it being in order and what wider checks have to be carried out in light of the lost deeds etc
Comment by Emma Dudfield posted on
Thanks for your prompt response.
Kind regards
Emma
Comment by Brenda posted on
I am hoping to have my unregistered property registered for the first time. The house is around 100 years old and I have a huge collection of paperwork consisting of conveyance documents, planning applications, ancient mortgages etc. I will be using a solicitor who will certify what documents are required to submit to the Land registry. I have been the sole owner of the house for over 20 years after the property was in joint names of my partner and myself prior to that) and the mortgage was paid off by myself around that time. Do I need to hand over every bit of paper to the solicitor or just the last 20 years of documents (including my conveyance) I am quite concerned at having to part with my original deeds for the solicitor to take to their offices to certify. Surely this can easily lead to theft or fraud using my original deeds.
Comment by AdamH posted on
Brenda - our practice guide 1 section 4.4.4 explains what title deeds/documents we will require. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/first-registrations
Your solicitor is however best placed to advise you on what 'bits of paper' are also required and whilst I appreciate your concerns I would recommend sharing all the details with your solicitor to enable them to submit the best application they can on your behalf. If you have any concerns over safety/security of the information then you should discuss that with the solicitor before handing the details over
Comment by Brenda posted on
Many thanks AdamH.
My concern is that my deeds will actually leave my possession to go to the solicitors office in order to make certified copies to send to the LR.
My fear stems from the fact that in the 80's a solicitor managed to secure a £60,000 loan on a property (that I had rented out ) without my knowledge and my house was repossessed. It took me 7 years to get the money that I had lost back with the help of the police and Financial ombudsman. II see that I must part with my deeds and the thought terrifies me.
Comment by AdamH posted on
Brenda - I'm sorry to read of what happened previously and do understand how that will impact now as well. Very much something to get assurances from the solicitor on and I am sure that they/the firm should be able to reassure you as a result.
Comment by Brenda posted on
Many thanks.
If I decide to go through with the first registration I am going to keep all of my correspondence with the solicitor, take copies myself of my deeds and ask for a receipt from the solicitor stating clearly that my deeds have been handed to them.
Comment by Lew posted on
My sons bought a maisonette above a storefront in a Victorian building. It was conveyed without any problem and they kept it as a buy-to-let for almost 10 years. Upon sale, the buyer's solicitor felt that the separate entrance stairs were not included as part of the footprint on the deed and held over £10K in escrow to solve the problem. How this was to be done we were not sure, but a year on the buyer's solicitor has announced they are keeping the money as they cannot 'correct' the deed. I find this really odd. What can our original conveyancing solicitor do, or will we have to get another solicitor? Surely a correction or affidavid/addendum can solve this problem. The downstairs owner does not claim this area as they have a street entrance.
Comment by ianflowers posted on
Lew - It's difficult to comment in general terms, but it may be that if part of the property was not included in the title due to it not being demised then a new deed between the current owners is sometimes required. The original conveyancing solicitor may be best placed to consider the options open to your son in this matter, but you can of course consult another solicitor if you wish. Those solicitors can contact us directly if needed.
Comment by Lew posted on
Thank you... can you tell me in legaleeze what 'demised' means... as I only know it's more common meaning.
So my son as seller could have had his solicitor create an amended deed? Would the freeholder have had to sign off on it? That could have been arranged. But the buyer seemed to have preferred this escrow. We now wonder if he used this to gain an advantage. After all, down the road HE can do the same thing, then, right?
Again, thank you for your time.
Comment by AdamH posted on
Lew - demise is the term used for the property/extent being leased. The freeholder would need to be included. I'd strongly recommend getting legal advice as to what your options are here and how best to proceed. We register any outcomes as appropriate
Comment by Sandra posted on
Hi
We finished paying off our mortgage in December and were told by the building society that they would deal with the discharge and forward our deeds in 6 weeks. I got in touch with them today as we have still not received them and have been told that I don't need paper deeds any longer and to contact land registry for copies. From reading this site I presume they have been destroyed. Anyway, when we bought our property, it was leasehold which we later bought and my parents had a 2nd charge (both their names) on the property. My mother passed away 12 years ago. I've gone onto land registry and there are 2 title deeds for our property- one for leasehold and one for freehold. The leasehold has everyone's name on a lender and the freehold just shows 'none' against lender. Sorry if my question seems obvious but does the freehold information file title override the leasehold or are both applicable?
Comment by AdamH posted on
Sandra - both are applicable. When you bought the leasehold the 'value' was in that tenure hence the mortgage. If you later bought the freehold that would not be made subject to the mortgage.
As far as 'deeds' are concerned I would be surprised if you had anything other than the register and title plan for both tenures plus your lease. That's especially true if both were already registered before you bought them.
Comment by Sandra posted on
Thank you. That answers most of my query. How about the discharge of interest in the property by the building society please? Where would that show or would I have to order the full file.Also the 2nd charge by my parents? How would we remove this if it's still on the title? Sorry but I'm a bit confused by there being two titles.
Comment by AdamH posted on
Sandra - apologies but your confusion means that the questions then confuse me. Can you share the title numbers involved please to make it easier for me to follow perhaps?
Comment by Sandra posted on
Sorry for the delay, the email advising you had responded was missed. The 2 title numbers wa727253 and cym552050. We no longer have a mortgage and the building society say they have confirmed discharged of their interest in the property. The 2nd title shows 'none' against lenders. Is this the confirmation? Also, as it shows 'none' does this mean my parents 2nd charge has also been removed?
Comment by AdamH posted on
Sandra - cym552050 is the freehold title which you own with Stephen. That has not been mortgaged so no legal charges are registered. wa727253 is the leasehold title which again you both own but which was subject to three legal charges. Two with Santander and one with your parents. Santander removed one of the charges in December last year but the other two remain.
If the two remaining charges are to be removed as well then you should contact Santander re their legal charge to query/clarify. Your parents can remove their charge using forms DS2 and DS1. They will also need to have their identities verified
https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/hm-land-registry-forms
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/verify-identity-citizen-id1
Comment by Emma Jones posted on
Hi there
I'm hoping that someone might be able to help me please.
I'm nearing the exchange of contracts on purchasing a house. The land registry shows that when the garden was extended (the council sold off parts of woodland behind the house) in 1995 there was a section of the garden in the middle which wasn't included. Its a very small triangular wedge which as been part of the garden and has been maintained by the vendor for the past 24 years.
Our solicitor is looking into with the vendors solicitor, however, it is really slowing the whole process down. Am I right in saying that if it has been part of the land for the last 10 years it automatically then belongs to the property which its in the boundaries of? Do we need to apply to suggest that a mistake has been made on the Land Registry? Could this be rejected?
Any help would be massively appreciated
Many thanks
Emma
Comment by AdamH posted on
Emma - there is nothing 'automatic' but you can apply to register claimed ownership over time. Your conveyancer is the best one to advise you here but our PG 5 explains the registration requirements for you https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/adverse-possession-of-1-unregistered-land-and-2-registered-land
Comment by Emma posted on
Thank you so much for your reply!
Is there a cost for this? Is there a chance it could be rejected? How long would it take to apply? Is it worth waiting until the house is ours to apply for this or is that too risky?
Many thanks
Comment by AdamH posted on
Emma - there is a registration fee of £40 plus an inspection (survey/site visit) fee of £90. It would take several weeks as there is a wait time between receipt and consideration and then the inspection and wider checks which may be required will take time also. When it is submitted the conveyancer should lodge evidence of the confirmed purchase and ask us to expedite the process. Expedition reduces the wait time between receipt and consideration only. You need to rely on your conveyancer her re the risks involved. We register outcomes and cannot advise you on the legal risks involved
Comment by Martyn souch posted on
Please could someone help me out i have tried and tried to get our deeds and still no success.I HAVE RANG THE BANK THEY TOLD ME TO RING THE MORGAGE PROVIDER.I rang them no good twice i have been onto land register and still no good even now im waiting for an awaer to the phone.Please can you get in touch with me
Comment by AdamH posted on
Martyn - what's the postal address please?
Comment by Martyn Souch posted on
21 Old Market Drive
Woolsery
Bideford
Devon
EX39 5QF
Comment by AdamH posted on
Martyn - many thanks. The property is registered under DN360950 so the 'deeds' are the electronic register and title plan we hold and which you can access online. There is also a 'filed' deed re the Transfer by the developer to you in 1995 and you can apply for a copy of that by post https://www.gov.uk/get-information-about-property-and-land/copies-of-deeds
There are no other 'deeds' and neither us or your lender will have held anything other than the above details
Are you looking for something else perhaps?
Comment by martyn posted on
No just the deeds thanks for that it was that when i paid off the morgage i was told the deeds would be in the post within a few weeks.I will now hopefully get them thanks
Comment by Bubbles1980 posted on
If I live with my parents and both parents die, do I need to register the house in my name to continue living there, or can I leave the deeds in their name, continue living there and also avoid paying Inheritance tax
Comment by AdamH posted on
Bubbles - whilst you do not have to register the property in your name we would recommend that you do https://help.landregistry.gov.uk/app/contactus_bereavement?utm_medium=GOV.UK&utm_source=govuk&utm_campaign=death_contact_page_to_guide&utm_content=web_page
You would need to check with HMRC re IHT and liability
Comment by Victoria posted on
Hello
My partner and I are in the process of buying a maisonette, part of an old property which has been restored and converted in 10 separate properties. 7 of those have title absolute leasehold, but ours and 2 others have title good leasehold only. For the purchase, we've been advised by our solicitor to get an indemnity insurance because of defect in title. Also, we've been told the possibility of upgrading the title to absolute in the future is small, as the freehold deeds have been lost and are not registered either. What can we do? is there any way of upgrading property title without freehold deeds? most other maisonettes have title absolute already so I don't understand why it would be that hard.
Comment by AdamH posted on
Victoria - how 'hard' it is will very much depend on what you/your solicitor advises and what steps you take to try and resolve the defect. As they have hopefully explained there are reasons why Good Leasehold is given as the class of title so trying to cure the defect starts with understanding why that is and then looking to cure it. Section 3.2.3 of our PG explains how to apply to upgrade it.
Indemnity insurance is an option to protect a buyer against the risks associated with a Good Leasehold title and there is a risk that by investigating too deeply can mean some insurance companies will not insure as your efforts to solve it increase the risk. I'd suggest talking this through with your solicitor
Comment by Victoria posted on
Hi AdamH Thank you very much for your reply! Our solicitor has tried to find out the reason behind the defect title, however the sellers don’t seem to have an answer. The property is a repossession, therefore the acting sellers have limited information on the property. Is there any other way of finding out why only good leasehold has been awarded? As in, if the sellers don’t have that information either?
Comment by ianflowers posted on
Victoria - I'm replying as Adam is unavailable. The solicitors acting will be best placed to look into this as it can be a complex area and contact us direct if needed.
Comment by Victoria posted on
Hello ianflowers, and thank you for your reply. The solicitors on both sellers and our side are not particularly helpful to be honest. Sellers are not too bothered, they are an asset recovery business (reputable bank) therefore they are selling the house as presented. We've been informed of lack of paperwork, therefore if happy to take the risk, we buy, if not, we don't have to buy it. Our solicitor is a bit frustrated as he's not getting straightforward answers from sellers and therefore doesn't understand why we're still interested in this property. As we stand, he thinks the defect in the title is because the freehold deeds haven't been registered and are not to be found either- maybe lost or destroyed. He thinks we should be able to upgrade the title as most other units in the main converted house have title absolute, which implies freehold deeds existed and were seen at some point. But if we don't find the deeds, we won't be able to upgrade. Sellers are not bothered about looking into it further and recommended that we take an indemnity insurance out. As you can see, it's all a mess and we've now taken it upon ourselves to try and look into it further. We've invested a lot of money into this already and feel like we can't give up just yet.
Comment by ianflowers posted on
It's a difficult situation, but ultimately if the sellers are not willing to investigate this further then it will be for parties involved to decide whether / how to proceed.
Comment by lauren jones posted on
We are currently in the process of buying a house and just been informed the seller has lost his deeds and because the purchase of the house was before 1980 the land registry do not hold records? Our estate agents is saying this is pretty common in older houses and the deeds have been lost? My concern is if the Land Registry only provide the seller with possessory title we will then be forwarded that title and hold no deeds and wont be able to apply for absolute title for 12 years and then may not be granted it. Our solicitors have obviously explained all the risk to us but our estate agents are saying we have nothing to worry about and it shouldn't stop us going forward. The solicitor stated the seller would have to put an indemnity policy in place but this would only cover us for legal fees if anyone did come forward claiming the house in the future. Any advice you could give would be greatly appreciated as we waited months to find the right house and we really don't want to loose it but at the same time we have to weigh up the risks.
Comment by ianflowers posted on
Lauren - we essentially have an administrative role in registering transactions based on the applications made to us and can't advise you how to proceed, I'm afraid. As you've mentioned, this is a matter for you to decide based on all the available information and your solicitor as an independent legal professional is best placed to advise you in this regard. An indemnity policy is an a option to consider in these cases, but as you've mentioned this may have limitations and again it's something to discuss with your solicitor.
Comment by Mandy posted on
Hi Lauren, I've just read your thread and I'm in the same situation; buying a house and been informed the deeds are lost (1959); house has been sold several times since then; the couple I am buying off have been there 4 years... its a nervous time but they have agreed to buy an indemnity policy, can I ask whether you went ahead with the purchase?
Comment by Lauren Jones posted on
Hi Mandy, Yes we decided to proceed but requested a discount for the potential issues we may face if we decide to sell. We haven't come across any issues yet and are hoping to receive a completion date this week. Good Luck
Comment by John posted on
Hi Lauren Jones,
I'm also in this situation on a probate. I have 2 questions:
1) How much discount did you get on this? HOw muc was it on for?
2) Did you have trouble finding a mortgage provider?
I am concerned with the resale value in 5 years if I take this on. I've heard discounts are typically quite high?
Thanks
Comment by Tony Glover posted on
Dear Land Registry.
The posts and replies above are most interesting and I would like to thank all your contributing staff for their time and effort in compiling them.
Keep up the good work.
Regards Tony
Comment by AdamH posted on
Tony - many thanks. It's an interesting subject and one which many people never encounter but when they do each scenario tends to be quite different. Sharing those scenarios and outcomes can certainly help others
Comment by Bhai posted on
Hi ,
I wonder if I can get some clarification please.
Looking at the title deed, it clearly says that ... “EXCEPT AND RESERVED unto the council and its successors in title and assigns but together with the rights of the Council and the Purchaser set out in paragraphs 2 and 3 of part 1 of Schedule 6 to the Housing Act 1985”.
Also, on the official copy of register of title, it states that... “the easements and rights specified in paragraph 2 of Schedule 6 of the said Act”.
I also looked at the legislation schedule 6 on legislation.gov.uk and says that rights of way over land not comprised in the dwelling-house to be conveyed or granted so far as the landlord is capable of granting them (the rights that were in use at the relevant time).
Q1. Were these easements and rights granted in conveyances by initial vendor (local council) persuant to schedule 6 to the housing act 1985 registered as appurtenant to the title? Please note that the servient land was (not registered) still owned by the council when our land was registered.
Q2. On what basis HMLR made an entry for these easements and rights against our title and can the entry be the note of it’s existence on the title register?
Q3. Are these really legal easements and rights granted to the property?
Much appreciated for your information.
Thanks.
Comment by AdamH posted on
Bhai - Q1 - you would have to read the register to see which deed reserved/granted such easements.
Q2 - again the register would confirm the deed that created the easements and when the property/deed was registered a note was then made. If you are looking to now register the same easements on your own title you would need to make an application to do so and supply supporting evidence as appropriate.
Q3 - the key wording comes before the extract you have quoted. If the register states that it has the benefit of the rights reserved by..... then they are for the benefit of the registered title
Comment by Leela kunwar posted on
Dear AdamH,
Thanks for your information, I wonder in such case which application form is required and how much fee is charged?
Leela
Comment by AdamH posted on
Leela - to do what please? I've looked back through several weeks of comments but cannot find your original one
Comment by Leela kunwar posted on
I am writing to the comment you made to Bhai Basnet
My property was sold on right to buy scheme by sitting tenants after 25 years. At that time the adjoining property was still owned by Trafford council and unregistered. I have a neighbour who do not accept the scadual 6, paragraphs 2 and 3 of housing act 1985 clearly registered in title deeds and mentioned on both conveyance deed . I have end terrace property with alleyways, having bedrooms over the alleyways have windows facing front access path and rear passage way. My neighbour says I have no legal rights to access the part of my neighbours land despite the evidence of prior use as by council tenanants, I have used it since then(2006). Part of my property is only accessible from rear passage way which used to be route of access path. As the part is not colour coded my neighbour refused to accept despite the words in conveyance and registered title says the rights and easement on both parties deeds. There is exactly same house, accross the road, under same authority, sold in similar plan, almost same time. Same wording in title deeds as mine but has access rights for the rear of the property in practice. Can you suggest how we can enjoy the rights given by conveyance ? I even have confirmation from Trafford council original grantor to support the existanc of such easements to the property. Please suggest.
Thanks
Comment by AdamH posted on
Leela - if you are applying to register a right against a registered title then you would do so using form AP1 and paying a £40 registration fee
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/change-the-register-ap1
However I note that you have also contacted us by email previously and I am unsure whether you have obtained a copy of either Conveyance for No 14 or No 12 asa advised in the email reply of the 2nd March
If I have understood correctly you appear to be focussing on the rights granted and reserved under the specific 1985 Act. However the rights relevant to the rights of way over the passageway are not specific to the Act as they are separately referred to in each Conveyance. As such those specific rights are already registered on each title
Comment by Mandy posted on
I am buying a house and have been informed that the title deeds have been missing since the 1950s..the sellers are very happy to pay for an indemnity policy to cover in case anyone ever comes forward in the future to make a claim.... are there any risks with going ahead with the purchase....
Comment by AdamH posted on
Mandy - very much something to rely on your conveyancer for advice as to the risks involved and what the policy covers
Comment by Mandy posted on
Thank you Adam, it was my solicitor who requested this for security...don't really understand how a house can be sold for another 60 years without deeds..
Mandy
Comment by AdamH posted on
Mandy - I suspect it has been in the family all that time so they never had to produce the deeds. There are risks, hence the need to insure against them suggested by your solicitor. Our PG 2 explains how we might register a property for the first time without the deeds but very much something to talk through with your solicitor https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/first-registration-of-title-where-deeds-have-been-lost-or-destroyed
Comment by Mandy posted on
Many thanks for your advice Adam. Can I please ask if I go ahead with the sale and the sellers do purchase a indemnity policy for the amount I am paying for it, does the house technically belong to me?
I am also assuming that the Land Registry entry will record my name in Section B (Proprietorship Register' as 'Title Absolute' as it currently does for the previous owners.
Sorry to ask but its all so confusing... Many thanks, Mandy
Comment by AdamH posted on
Mandy - your original comment suggested that the property was unregistered and had not been sold for 60+ years. However you now refer to Title Absolute and previous owners so I am assuming it is actually registered. If so then presumably the indemnity policy is not for the original deeds/documents but for a specific deed referred to on the register but nobody has a copy?
Comment by Leela Kunwar posted on
Hi AdamH,
Thank you so much for your information. Much appreciated for your help.
I understand that those specific rights that are already registered on each title not specific to Paragraphs 2 and 3 of Part 1 to the Housing Act 1985.
However, the rights relevant to the rights of way over the rear passageway are specific to the Act as they are separately referred to in each Conveyance and title register.
As per PSD1 form that we received from the Land Registry and Practice guide 47: transfers of public housing estates, Section 3.2 The existing incumbrances to which the land is subject, the beneficial easements and rights specified in paragraphs 2 and 3 of Schedule 6 of the Housing Act entered in the register as appurtenant to the title (see below).
A: Property Register (section 2) on the Title Register
2 (07.01.2002) The Conveyance dated 28 August 2001 referred to in the Charges Register was made pursuant to Part V of the Housing Act 1985 and the land has the benefit of and is subject to such easements as are granted and reserved in the said Deed and the easements and rights specified in paragraph 2 of Schedule 6 of the said Act.
The beneficial easements and rights set out in paragraphs 2 and 3 of Part 1 of Schedule 6 to the Housing Act 1985 are rights of support of a building or a part of a building and rights to use services (drains, pipes, cables etc.) under the right to buy provisions (see paragraph 2 – section (a) ). Both the conveyances of 2001 and 2003 (house no. 14 and no. 12) have included the same rights. As above, the purpose of the rights granted pursuant to Schedule 6 Part 1 to the Housing Act 1985 is properly defined. However, the extent of all such easements and rights are not clearly defined for the rear adjoining property in the schedule, given the fact that part of our rear adjoining property over the passageway can only be accessed via neighbouring land which is immediately fronting the alleyway.
For example, paragraph 2 of the said act (https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1985/68/schedule/6) states that …
(a) to grant with the dwelling-house all such easements and rights over other property, so far as the landlord is capable of granting them …..
(b) to make the dwelling-house subject to all such easements and rights for the benefit of other property …
Paragraph 3 states that …
(a) such provisions (if any) as the tenant may require for the purpose of securing to him rights of way over land not comprised in the dwelling-house, so far as the landlord is capable of granting them, being rights of way that are necessary for the reasonable enjoyment of the dwelling-house; and
(b) such provisions (if any) as the landlord may require for the purpose of making the dwelling-house subject to rights of way necessary for the reasonable enjoyment of other property, being property in which at the relevant time the landlord has an interest, or to rights of way granted or agreed to be granted before the relevant time by the landlord …
Given the fact that these are legal beneficial easements and rights registered against our Title and Conveyance, can we now register against both titles showing the extent of rights in order to avoid the ambiguity?
Thanks.
Comment by AdamH posted on
Leela - please note the wording '(a) <strong>to grant</strong> with the dwelling-house all such easements and rights over other property, so far as the landlord is capable of granting them ….. (b) <strong>to make the dwelling-house subject</strong> to all such easements and rights for the benefit of other property …'
So the act requires them to do something, which they did in the Conveyance so there is no ambiguity. I assume from your comments that you are trying to add a right of way that has not been specifically referred to in the Conveyance
Comment by Leela posted on
Good morning AdamH,
Thank you so much for your prompt response on this matter.
As you said there’s no ambiguity in relation to the extent of the rights prescribed in the Act, I assume that there is no need for me to register the same rights indicating the extent then?
Many thanks.
Comment by AdamH posted on
Leela - I don't really understand your question, The key issue is I assume whether the neighbouring properties dovetail re the rights granted/reserved both in the Act and specifically in the Conveyance/Transfer as appropriate. If you are concerned that they are not then you should make an application to update the register(s) using form AP1.
However I would recommend that you seek legal advice to clarify the difference between what is included in the Act and what is specifically granted/reserved in the Conveyance/Transfer. There is clearly an issue for you over the easements actually being used by either party and that is where your legal advice must come in
Comment by Leela Kunwar posted on
Hi,
Since May 2019, I have already spent more than £25, 000 to establish what rights were granted both in the Housing Act 1985 and in the conveyance. The solicitors acting on my behalf provided the following legal advice;
"In relation to your primary case, namely that a statutory easement was acquired by you from Trafford B.C. when you purchased the Property in 2006, this is entirely dependent upon the title that you acquired at that time which goes back to the original sale from Trafford B.C. to your predecessors in August of 2001.
As these houses were sold by the Council to its sitting tenants under the "Right to Buy" scheme, the property has been granted all the necessary rights of way that are necessary for the reasonable enjoyment of the dwelling-house and the conveyance complies with the requirements of the Housing Act 1985.
The initial vendor (Trafford B.C.) was in a position to grant these rights and easements under the Housing Act 1985 on the basis that it is necessary for the reasonable enjoyment of the property because otherwise you would be landlocked from being able to access the overhanging part of your property and could not maintain or repair it when needed."
As our neighbour does not dovetail re the rights granted both in the Act and specifically in the Conveyance, we would like to make an application to update both registers (including our neighbour's) .
Please can you suggest the documents (example, office copy entries of Title and conveyance of both properties etc.) that we need to submit in support of an application form AP1?
Many thanks,
Comment by ianflowers posted on
Leela - As Adam mentioned in their response to your previous enquiries, AP1 one is the form to use if you are seeking to register a right against a registered title or alter a title in some other way. Also that we cannot advise as the documents to be lodged in support of any application, and we would advise considering seeking independent legal advice if you are unsure how to proceed.
Comment by Mandy posted on
Hi Adam,
I am sorry for the confusing message; I didn't make my question very clear...as it is all very confusing, would you be willing to, if I gave you the Title Number explain what is missing?
Kind regards, Mandy
Comment by Mandy posted on
Many thanks Adam, I am emailed as requested. Kind regards, Amanda.
Comment by Heather posted on
Hi I have purchased the title register and it says at the bottom, note original filed, does that mean the original deeds were filed with yourselves x
Comment by ianflowers posted on
Heather - the 'original filed' reference will usually relate to the particular entry (usually in the C.Charges Register) that is above the note. So if that entry relates to a particular deed, for example, we should hold the original of that deed in our files.
If you need a copy of the deed, you will need to lodge a postal application on form OC2 and this attracts a £7 fee. Please see our GOV.UK guidance for more details and a link to the form - https://www.gov.uk/get-information-about-property-and-land/copies-of-deeds .
Comment by zoe taylor posted on
I am trying to sell my house which is a free hold but there is a ground rent of £4 a year in place on the land which my house has been built on. We are in a tricky situation because when the person who built our house sold it they didn’t get consent for the build of our house from the ground rent owners. Our house has been built on their land. The land registry reflects this divide but the ground rent still remains in place. The buyer had indemnity insurance to cover the lack of consent but the terms and conditions were breached as their solicitor stupidly wrote to the ground rent owners in between exchange and completion to ask them to apportion the rent. On the day of completion the ground rent owners sent a letter to the seller’s solicitor stating that they were now aware of the lack of consent for the build and would seek to enforce actions against the breach of covenants.
£10,000 was kept back from the sale of the property with a contract between the solicitors that they would rectify the breach issues or seek to get further insurance. It has been a nightmare trying to get the solicitors to sort this out and two and a half years on it remains unresolved.
We are now trying to sell our house and are currently in a chain. My solicitor has corresponded with the owner of the ground rent and he is demanding £10,000 to release my property from the ground rent covenants all together and to give retrospective consent.
The ground rent owner has provided a transfer of deeds and a signed release deed but has not got a title deed and will not provide one. The buyer’s solicitor has requested that the release deed is registered against the title deed in order to move forward with the sale. However the owner of the ground rent will not reply to any correspondence. He will only communicate by letter and will not give an email or telephone number. He has ignored several letters for the last several weeks.
The ground rent owner appears to be a bit of a crook and from doing some research into this they are quite regularly doing this type of thing to people on the day of completion in order to extort money.
We are in a real hurry though as everyone is waiting to exchange and this is holding us up! How can we get round this without a title deed.
Our solicitor seems clueless and so any advice on how to proceed would be amazing. I am assuming we have a case of negligence of some sort on the solicitors part as we are now in a position where we can’t sell the house!
Comment by AdamH posted on
Zoe - it is legal advice you need here and I am afraid we cannot provide that. If your solicitor is unable to resolve it then it maybe worth escalating it using the firm's complaints procedure or looking for an alternative solicitor to act for you.
Comment by Sheila Maw posted on
I have just purchased the freehold on a 3 year leasehold new build, I have been waiting 6 weeks for some confirmation but have been told it is with the Land Registry ! Is this likely to be correct ?
Comment by AdamH posted on
Sheila - quite possibly. We have a backlog of certain types of work so it could be several more weeks before it is registered.
Comment by Leo Pruyne posted on
I'm gratified with the way that hmlandregistry.blog.gov.uk deals with this kind of topic! Generally on point, sometimes polemic, always thoughtful as well as stimulating.
Comment by John posted on
How do I obtain a copy of a neighbours deeds to check what covenants apply? They are building an extension which I understand breaches a restrictive covenant to build within 3 feet of the boundary. I have obtained the basic title register and plan from land registry website. Many thanks
Comment by AdamH posted on
John - if the register refers to a deed as being 'filed' then you can apply by post for a copy if it is needed to confirm what covenants exist https://www.gov.uk/get-information-about-property-and-land
Comment by John posted on
Thanks, it says on the brief download from the land registry website that, a full register accompanies this document, so hopefully that shows all the various covenants as the download version has only minimal information. Will it be a photocopy of the original lease which looks quite fancy with the fonts, seals and signatures etc or just a electronically word proceessed version? Thanks again.
Comment by AdamH posted on
John - the register and title plan are available online. You can view examples as part of that service. If you apply by post for a copy of any 'filed' deeds, inc the lease, then it would be a copy of that document that we then supply by post
Comment by John posted on
What is the approximate turnaround time for the postal applications please? Is it typically days or weeks? Thanks again
Comment by AdamH posted on
John - all depends what the application is For example if it is the most common type of application, namely to update the register following a sale/purchase then the average is 9 working days between receipt and consideration. If it's in order when we consider it then it is also registered
Comment by John posted on
Sorry, I was perhaps a little unclear. I was querying the time in respect of obtaining a copy of the neighbours lease to confirm that the covenants are as we expect. We have ordered but was unsure how soon we were likely to receive.
Thanks
Comment by AdamH posted on
John - applications for copy deeds are normally round around in 2 to 3 days
Comment by John posted on
Thanks for your quick responses.
Comment by John posted on
Please let me have a contact email and phone number to check our request has been received and is being processed. Thanks
Comment by AdamH posted on
John - you cna call the support team on 03000060411 or use our online contact form to email https://help.landregistry.gov.uk/app/contactus_general/?utm_medium=newsletter&utm_source=govuk&utm_campaign=death_contact_page_to_contact_form&utm_content=web_page
Comment by Stu posted on
We have the original lease plan for our flat that plots our flat as number 9 but our door number in 10. Is this an issue? The flat is still in the right position.
Comment by ianflowers posted on
Stu - If you have access to the leasehold title register for your flat, it would worth checking if the correct number is noted in A:Property Register. You can download a copy of the register from our Find a Property Service on GOV.UK for £3: https://www.gov.uk/search-property-information-land-registry . If you'd like us to check our historical records, please use our contact form - https://www.gov.uk/guidance/contact-hm-land-registry giving full details and we'll get back to you as soon as possible.
Comment by Timothy jenkins posted on
Hi, fascinating and informative reading here... not sure you can help me but I have lived in our cottage for years and I have the original lease dating back to the time it was given to the ferry mans the only son in 1837 .. for a 999yrs. it was sold once to the big estate in 1967 by his descendants and we purchased it from them. Next door on a similar line to us, is this patch of land with a derelict cottage, which we tend the trees etc and keep tidy ,The title on my deeds talks of a differently named cottage and I assumed it was our cottage under a different name. My interest in tracing the family history of the ferryman turns up that the lease is for this derelict cottage and the land that my cottage sits on, which was built after in 1844! Because i have bought this lease, can I now to register that part as being part of our leasehold property as it says? The census/tythe clearly marks the original cottage with the right name
Comment by ianflowers posted on
Timothy - It's dependent on what you bought at the time, for example, the whole of the land granted in the 1837 lease or part of it. If your property is not registered with us, then we won't have any information on your transaction to assist. If the property is registered with us, we may still have limited information as most of the conveyancing documents are returned when the property is first registered with us, but you could contact us with details to enquire - https://bit.ly/2F6AtxU . The Leasehold Advisory Service may also be of assistance - https://www.lease-advice.org/ .
Comment by Timothy Jenkins posted on
Thank you ..I will follow the links as you suggested . Tim
Comment by marion hall posted on
hi, we bought our house in 2010, in joint names. My other half was killed in an RTA in 2012 and the mortgage was paid off a few months later. I was told the title deeds were changed to my name only, I have now sold my house and couldn't find an updated copy of the deeds. I have been on the website, paid and downloaded the deeds to find my husbands name is still on the deeds. it does say details were changed. how do I get this changed?
Comment by ianflowers posted on
Marion - I am sorry to hear of your loss. If you have completed the house sale, the solicitors acting for the buyer will then lodge the application with us to change the ownership. This is sometimes done a few weeks after completion of the sale. It is possible that an application is currently pending with us. If your late husband's name is still on the register, the solicitor's acting will need to supply the appropriate evidence or certification with the application - normally either a copy of the probate or death certificate.
Comment by Jo M posted on
What form need to send to Land Registry if we would like change the name of management ? (we will change the name in Company Registrar) then we need to update name in LR.
Comment by AdamH posted on
Jo M - you would use form AP1 to apply to update the register re a change of company name and submit it along with a copy of the evidence confirming the change made through Companies House https://www.gov.uk/registering-land-or-property-with-land-registry/update-or-correct-the-register
Comment by Ricky Jukes posted on
Hi Im in the process of buying a house and there is a covenant within the Title deeds for the Property that states the drive way between the house and next door is shared access for the old Garages that use to be at the back of the properties, the garages are no longer there so no Cars will be driving up the drive , is it be possible to get this changed / Removed?
i would like to put a fence for security reasons down the boundary line because as it stands anyone from the street could walk in to the back garden.
Comment by AdamH posted on
Ricky - do you mean a covenant or is it an easement/right of way? What's the title number please?
Comment by Ricky Jukes posted on
Hi Adam
i believe it to be a covenant, the title number is HW83334 .
Comment by AdamH posted on
Ricky - many thanks. The title refers to both easements (rights) and a covenant in respect of the shared access. Extinguishing the right and removing the covenant is something you'll need to discuss with your conveyancer as it seems likely that in order to do so you would need the consent/cooperation of the neighbour who shares the access for example.
Our PG 62 for example explains how rights can be extinguished and sometimes 'abandoned' https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/easements
Comment by Ricky Jukes posted on
Hi Adam
so its possible with the consent of the neighbour. like i said in my original Message there is no need for it as the garages no longer exist and the neighbour will still have acess to the back garden down the side of there property, i just want to put a fence down my so called boundary line that isn't a boundary.
but thanks for your help on this matter.
Regards
Rick
Comment by Paul McMillan posted on
Hi,
Urgent advice needed. We purchased our house in 2016 and now in the process of selling it. Now days before we are intending on completing (31/7/2019) we have been informed by our our solicitor that original purchaser’s charge still remains on your client’s Title.
The garage leasehold title we have obtained is current and up-to-date and should not contain a charge from the pre-existing seller of 2003
Can anyone help?
Thanks
a very stressed Paul
Comment by AdamH posted on
Paul - you'll need to get the named lender to discharge their charge. The seller's solicitor at the time should have had an undertaking from them at the time to do so on repayment so one to chase up with them/the lender
Comment by Paul McMillan posted on
Thank you.
Is it possible to take out an indemnity to enable the sale to proceed on Wednesday?
Comment by AdamH posted on
Paul - we don;t deal with indemnity enquiries I'm afraid so you'd need to check with your conveyancer
Comment by Ben Jones posted on
Hi.
My flat leasehold purchase completed today.
How long will it take to register the property so I can view the Title in my name online?
Thank you
Ben
Comment by AdamH posted on
Ben - was it a new lease or an existing one? If new then it is unlikely to be considered for 4+ months. If an existing one then the average is 9 working days
Comment by Ben posted on
It's an existing lease.
So is that say 9 working days from the date you receive the signed transfer forms?
Thank you
Ben
Comment by AdamH posted on
Ben - 9 working days from receipt of the application. Everything then hinges on it being in order and registerable of course
Comment by H posted on
Hi. I bought a new build house in December 2018 and I'm still waiting for the title to the property. My solicitor/conveyancer say that theres a backlog as it's a large new build estate. And it's one of many new build estates in the area. Is that right? Should I still be waiting for it?
Comment by AdamH posted on
H - we do have a backlog although it would not normally stretch that far back unless the application was lodged a little later as in late Jan/early Feb for example. So IF it is still live, and the solicitor can check, then it is perfectly possible that it is still waiting to be registered
That can be an issue if say you are selling or remortgaging but if not then waiting should not pose any legal/ownership issues but I appreciate it can be worrying or frustrating.
Comment by LR posted on
Hello, I am wanting to update theLand Registry records so that my married name appears on the deeds, which still has my maiden name on it. The guidance video is confusing about filling in form AP1 and what to send as proof. Can I do it by sending in just a certified copy of my marriage certificate, or must I send the original as well as a certified copy? And do I need to fill in form ID1 as well? Thanks
Comment by AdamH posted on
LR - form AP1 (panels 1-7 inc and 15 only) plus an official or certified copy of your marriage certificate is required. We don;t want the original certificate and do not need form ID1. You should have an official copy bought for this type of use. If you don;t have one then you can submit a certified copy
Comment by Helen posted on
Hoping you could offer some advice. We bought our home back in 2002 and have recently realised (after searching online for our property valuation) we are not registered with Land Registry. Our house is also coming up as leasehold even though many of our neighbours are freehold. When we bought it it was explained that this was out of date and no longer relevant. We have never paid any fees to a third party etc. I assumed this would have all been sorted by our solicitors/mortgage company when we bought the property; it was not a new home. About 10 years ago we were sent the deeds, along with several other documents, and I assumed this was because everything was now stored digitally. We still have 8 years remaining on our mortgage. We are not looking to sell at the moment so not sure this is even relevant but it worries me that we are not registered with LR and that the property seems to be still down as leasehold.
Comment by AdamH posted on
Helen - if you bought in 2002 than that should be registered. Can you provide the postal address please so I can check?
Comment by Helen posted on
Thank you AdamH, I’ve sent the details to the above email. I hope that was right?
Comment by Jackie Edwards posted on
My sister has had her deeds for many years since the mortgage was paid off. She is now in the process of selling and her Solicitor has asked for the deeds to be sent to them. When we moved 2yrs ago this was not required, as all records are held digitally. We have checked and she is registered, as were we. Should she send them?
Comment by AdamH posted on
Jackie - you don;t need them to confirm ownership so worth asking the solicitor to confirm the reason behind the Q
Comment by Rhys posted on
Hi there please can you help we just purchased our first house in Oct 2018 and it mentions on our title register about a conveyance between Robert Pring and Charles Simon Rodney of 2nd December 1957. I've asked my solicitor if we could have a copy of it as I assume it would be with the original title deeds but they've kept pushing me away saying it was dematerialised. I've also spoken to my lender who hold nothing. The house was last sold in 1995 and I spoke to the seller recently and she never received them. On the title register it says Note: Copy Filed so does this mean you would have them? Our title register number is WA610900
Comment by AdamH posted on
Rhys - the register refers to it as being filed so I imagine your solicitor got a copy before you bought the title. If not then you can apply for a copy by post https://www.gov.uk/get-information-about-property-and-land/copies-of-deeds
Comment by Rhys posted on
Sadly they never did so I would have to apply would it be classed as one document?
Comment by AdamH posted on
Rhys - it would. Just fill in the form OC2 with the name of the deed, date, title number and 1 copy
Comment by Rhys posted on
Adam when I fill the form out I can't see how I would pay via direct debit as I don't own a cheque book.
Comment by AdamH posted on
Rhys - postal order is the alternative to a cheque. You'll need to get one from your Post Office.
Comment by Paul posted on
There is a dispute regarding a boundary of a property I am purchasing. The LR title plan does not agree exactly with the deeds plan. Which of these shows the legal boundary?
Comment by AdamH posted on
Paul - the title plan shows the registered extent so is the one you would go by. Old deeds can help paint a picture as to how land/property has been conveyed previously so can be important but once registered the title plan is the key re owned extent and position of general boundaries. Have a look at our PG 40 supplements 3 and 5 for guidance https://www.gov.uk/topic/land-registration/practice-guides
Comment by Ricky Jukes posted on
Hi Adam
we spoke around 2 mouths ago Regarding the easements on my title deed for the property i have just purchased, i currently have a solicitor looking it to this for me, but they have raised the question that my name or my wife's name is not showing on the Title register as yet. my question is how long dose it take for the register to be updated.. as my soliciter has down loaded the title 3 times and its still showing the sellers details..
can you please let me know .. my title number is HW83334
Thanks
Regards
Rick
Comment by AdamH posted on
Ricky - the application was completed on the 16th.
Comment by Ricky Jukes posted on
Ok, Thanks Adam
i will inform my solicitor.
Regards
Rick
Comment by Yan posted on
Hi,
Could you please let me know any updates regarding to this Title Ref : JA76524 application as we urgently need this part in one of our important application.
It's for the postcode - HA3 5NY
I appreciate for your reply.
Kind Regards,
Comment by AdamH posted on
Yan - the application was submitted in early August. We have a backlog of this type of work so it won't be considered for a few months yet. If it is urgent then you should speak to your conveyancer as they should be aware of the process for asking us to expedite their application
Comment by peter brooks posted on
Hi Adam
I may have asked you this previously!
Our house is in my name, Peter, and want transfer into joint names. Originally I had a small mortgage which was repaid in 1998, I have form DS1 from the lender, The Woolwich , as proof. On the Charges Register it shows I still have a mortgage outstanding how do I get this removed or,should I do it in the process of transferring ownership
Comment by ianflowers posted on
Peter - I'm replying as Adam is unavailable. Would you give me the date of the DS1 as this will impact on how we deal with any application?
Comment by peter brooks posted on
Hi, it was may 1998
Comment by peter brooks posted on
I think I may have wasted your time. I have watched videos on AP1,TR1 and ID1 so have worked out my answer. Sorry to have troubled you.
Comment by ianflowers posted on
Peter - That's fine. Yes, the videos should explain things and there also some guidance notes available. You can lodge the form DS1 at the same time.
Comment by Lisa Law Min posted on
Hi, my parents finished paying their mortgage in the 80’s and around the same time bought the lease and became freeholders. They are selling their home and have a seller, but are unable to find paper work stating they bought the lease. It’s not been put on the deeds to the house. How can they prove the the home is a freehold? Thank you for any help.
Comment by AdamH posted on
Lisa Law Min - they should speak to their conveyancer as to what is required in law. Our Practice Guide then explains what is required from a registration perspective https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/leases-determination
Comment by Adrian posted on
Hello, I have been in my property since 1995 and received a letter in August from a Solicitor to the original owners regarding unregistered land adjoining the property and the title deeds they had in storage could be collected or sent for storage elsewhere. I called them back saying I was the current owner and didn't know of any land apart from my neighbours. She sent a copy of the land registry and I could see where this was. It's half of my garden surrounded by neighbours gardens so within all the fences. I managed to find the original owner through neighbours and Electoral Role. He was baffled as to why they weren't transferred to his daughter, then the people we bought from although this land has always been part of our garden. The original owner had this strip of land claimed from the council / developer many years ago. He is willing to help but does not want to be stressed by the situation as he has a terminal illness and months to live. Also his wife passed away in July.
He contacted the Solicitor by phone and told them to deal with myself to arrange a cost to transfer title me and he would sign the paperwork. I have contacted the Solicitor and they are refusing to deal with me and the original owner has said in an email to me he won't chase them as he's already instructed them to deal with me. I'm stuck, Is there any other way to get this land registered to myself without stressing the original owner who has more things to worry about? I can provide details of the land which is registered to me so you can see the unregistered part.
Apologies for such a long submission.
Comment by AdamH posted on
Adrian - you have a choice in that the legal owner transfers it or you claim ownership and register it https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/adverse-possession-of-1-unregistered-land-and-2-registered-land
It’s legal advice you now need re any claim being a legal one before considering whether it can then be registered
Comment by Adrian posted on
Hello Adam,
Many thanks for your prompt reply. It was as I thought. I have written to the Solicitor who has his deeds with copies of text and emails from the original owner where he states he's expecting them to deal with me. Let's see how that gets responded to.
Also, I may just have to wait and then deal with the Executors of his estate in the near future which I'm guessing would ensure that title is passed immediately rather than having to wait 10-12yrs through adverse possession?
Comment by AdamH posted on
Adrian - any claim is likely to result in a possessory title. Any legal transfer of the title, albeit unregistered, should result in absolute title providing the paper title is intact
Comment by Nomad posted on
Hello,
I inherited two cottages at either end of a row of seven from my grandmother in 2003. These have been passed down through the family since my great grandfather bought the whole row back in the 1930's. Various ones have been sold off over time. The cottages also have shared wash houses behind the row, although looking at the deeds it appears that 'mine' was NOT sold along with the next door property when my grandmother sold that house. Ergo it is ostensibly mine. However, I am aware that the current owner bought the property in good faith from the last owner WITH 1/2 the wash house, and it seems that the seller had decided to register it in his name without my knowledge!
I now want to register the two cottages that are mine but am not sure of my legal position with regard to the wash house. I also hold ALL of the historic deeds relating to the properties (all 7) dating back to Victorian times, as they were originally sold in one transaction to my family. Is this going to cause huge confusion?
I want to register these myself as I cannot afford to have a solicitor do this. I have my grandmother's will and the probate documents. Will these be sufficient along with the deeds? I do not have anything relating to my great grandfather's probate. A further complication is that he left the properties jointly to my grandmother & mother, along with another property - they split these legally so my grandmother got the cottages and my mother the other property.
I also do not want to 'lose' the original documents, both for historic reasons and because they relate to properties that are no longer owned by my family - but I believe that I will have these returned to me. Am I correct?
N.B. An idiot's guide to completing the forms and documents needed would be VERY useful!
Comment by AdamH posted on
Nomad - I would suggest you separate out the two things re the inheritance and the property but bring them together when you apply to register title.
From an inheritance perspective properties can pass down through families through wills/inheritance. But until a legal deed is completed the actual legal ownership has not changed. So wills/probate confirm the deaths and inheritance but you also now need to transfer the legal ownership. This would be done by the executor(s) transferring to the beneficiary, you for example.
The old deeds and documents will confirm how the legal ownership changed over the years but presumably up to a point. For example you mention your great grandfather so if the last deed, perhaps a Conveyance, shows him to have purchased the properties in his sole name then the legal ownership lies with his estate. You then have to work forward with regards probate for him and on through the family. In effect you need to show a chain of representation from his probate to whoever you have inherited from. So an example would be Conveyance to great grandfather, probate for him naming your great grandmother as his executor, probate for her naming your Mother as executor and finally probate for her naming you as executor.
Our Practice Guide 1 explains how to apply for first registration and includes guidance as to the deeds/documents we would require. It will not cover wills/probate and inheritance as they relate to the beneficial ownership/deceased's estate, so they can impact as explained but first registration is based on the transfer of the legal ownership by way of a deed rather than wills/probate on their own.
The guide explains how original deeds/documents are required but how they are then returned to the applicant.The forms FR1 and DL include notes to assist with their completion but the forms are not the issue I suspect here.
Whilst you do not have to use a solicitor I would strongly recommend that you do at least with regards understanding how the ownership has changed through death/inheritance and what evidence you now need to show that you, as executor for your late Mother (if that is the case), can now transfer the legal ownership to you as the beneficiary.
The PG1 and forms FR1/DL do provide a guide as to what is required but they cannot be simplified to the cover such a complex scenario as you now face. An idiot's guide is impossible for such scenarios but by separating out the chain of representation first and then dealing with the registration should enable you to complete the legal and registration requirements. But without the first, which we do not deal with, the second part cannot take place
Comment by Amber posted on
Hi land registry,
Just a couple of questions, we have buyer for our house, they are doing a let to buy mortgage and have been told by their conveyancer ( very late in the proceeds) that they need to register their property electronically with land registry. The buyers hold the original deeds and have lived there before a very long time. Due to timescales we are needing to complete before 8th November, I have been told that they have submitted an expedited application.
please can you advice on current time scales ( as I know this varies )
Whether this would be considered a first registration and generally explain the process to me I would be very grateful. The couple are elderly and I feel for them
As their conveyancer has not been very good at all sadly
Kind regards
Amber
Comment by AdamH posted on
Amber - an expedited first registration would be considered within 10 working days of it being expedited. Everything then depends on it being in order of course. If it is at the time of consideration then it can be registered
Comment by Jeffrey posted on
My Title Deeds are registered with Land Registry and I have a copy. They are an abridged version of what was agreed in the Conveyance 25 years ago when I first bought a new build.
I have tried to seek a copy of the Conveyance from my mortgage lender and original solicitor but to no avail, they say paper documents have been dispensed with and details forwarded to Land Registry.
Does this mean that any conditions agreed in the Conveyance and not described in the Title Deeds are now void?
As the Title deeds do not carry signatures does this lessen their value?
Comment by AdamH posted on
Jeffrey - nothing would be void but the register would only refer to those aspects that were registerable, namely rights, covenants, provisions etc. The register is not lessened in value by a lack of signatures.
Comment by Jeff Crowder posted on
In my original conveyance it was agreed that no animal other than domestic pets could be kept on our property.
The Land Registry Title Deed makes no mention of that condition so has it been lost in the digitising process and no longer applicable?
As the deed is published I would believe that it is not amendable if I wished it to now permit me bringing such animals onto my property because it could affect others.
Comment by AdamH posted on
Jeff - I see you have also emailed us so I will allow the support team to respond
Comment by Jeff Crowder posted on
Adam,
I am learning about how the Land Registry is set up to handle customer enquiries, those from the general public, not from professional bodies.
As we are not trained on how to work through the various options we need to read and comprehend, and it's not always easy.
I notice many of your blog writers complain at having lost their original Conveyancing documents with the seals and signatures attached, typically the effect of the Government's policy to digitise documents no doubt to reduce the cost and inconvenience of searching document storage.
Well it seems that all may not be lost as you apparently have a two layer system, One for general enquiries where an abridged form of the Title Deed is contained but missing a considerable block of detail, available as a quick and easy access system.
The second, referred to as OC 1 and 2, is used for detailed searches where greater detail, typically used for the profession is stored and only retrievable by written application due apparently to those that may use it for less pleasant purposes, a sort of filter process.
Well, it just could be that if you communicated that fact more clearly, those that are so offended at loosing their Conveyance documents, may find that they are still in existence but hidden slightly deeper.
Comment by AdamH posted on
Jeff - forms OC1 and OC2 are used to obtain official copies of the register/title plan and documents referred to as filed on the register (if any) or submitted as part of an application to update the register. Whilst it is a two tiered system in many ways it’s not for the reasons you suggest.
The OC1/OC2 service is available to all and has been since 1990 when the register was made ‘open’
The online service was developed later to enable anyone to get a copy of the register/title plan or referred to as filed documents (if any). Privacy concerns raised at the time resulted in only the register/title plan being available online.
As far as original documents are concerned these were never retained by us in the way implied. Be that before if after digitalisation as you call it. When a title is first registered those originals are returned as the blog explains. If they are lost thereafter it’s usually because when next sold the seller does not hand them on to the buyer.
You also refer to an abridged mention if your Conveyance on the register. As explained in my email to you previously it’s not an abridged version. It’s an entry which identifies its type, date, parties and relevance e.g containing covenants. It is then filed and a copy is available to all by post using form OC2. The entry includes enough detail to ensure the copy matches the one referred to on the register.
Our online services explain what you can obtain online or by post. It provides examples of both the register and title plan which then refer on to ‘filed’ documents also but as explained not all registers refer and that is a crucial point here.
Comment by Chris posted on
Our family owns two very old, adjoining properties that share a passageway to their rear.
The passageway is on the plan of house #1 (house #2's first floor extends over the passageway).
We are selling house #1 and (as the passageway is on that property's land) I am concerned that the new owner would have the right to deny access to the rear of house #2 via the passage.
Both properties are registered at LR but the titles do not mention anything about right of way.
The properties have been in the family for a long time; we no longer have the original deeds for either house (one set was lost by a solicitor in the 80's, I am not sure anyone ever had).
Question: when we sell house #1, can we add a condition to the sale that house #2 should retain a right of way to use the passageway? Will that be a permanent record on house#1's title?
Or do we need to update the titles prior to the sale?
Many thanks
Chris
Comment by AdamH posted on
Chris - you’d normally reserve/grant any rights as appropriate on sale. Speak to your conveyancer on how to achieve that. If they are in separate ownership currently then you could do it before selling but that may impact on timing re sale/purchase as adds a delay? Again speak to your conveyancer
Comment by Jeff Crowder posted on
Very confusing site, you are encouraged to pay your £7 for a Title Deed and Plan and end up with a scanned part of that Deed without Schedules and Covenants called a Register. The complete document available only by completing an OC 2 form and sending it by mail.
This is therefore not the Title Deed just an extract for verification prior to a written request! Not what you expect!
Comment by AdamH posted on
Jeff - nobody is encouraged. If you want to apply for a copy of the register/title plan (the 'title deed' once a property is registered) then you can do so using form OC1 but you can also search for and view/download and save a copy online for £3.
There is no scanned part of the deed included. The register refers to it as explained.
Hopefully the explanation both online, in email and here helps you and others understand what to expect but only when you make the choice to apply online or by post as you wish.
Comment by Jeff Crowder posted on
Still confusing, I was told to use OC 2 to apply for my Conveyance/Title Deed, now its OC1!
I have bought my Register/Title deed copy and it is only a part of my original as it does not show all agreed conditions. Land Registry should be clearer with infrequent users, if you are only wanting the briefest detail purchase online.
If you want the full document you must apply in writing so as to protect such detail from those that may use it incorrectly!
As you use it all the time and solicitors frequently then you cannot see the problem arising from misinformation and the sale of documents customers are not seeking, the full Title Deed not an abridged version.
Its for you to listen and meet the publics expectations as obviously not happening in many blogs!
Comment by Peter posted on
My Uncle died 3 years ago and his property, which has been in the family since 1836, was unregistered with the Land Registry. We have very old original deeds, it was passed down from one generation to the next.
We want to sell the property but are trying to get it registered first. Our Solicitor has sent the deeds along with masses of information but the Land Reg is still asking for more. It’s a nightmare and has been going on for months. How long should this process take? My Uncle paid council tax, was on the local council, was well known etc and we have sent all the documentation. We have paid a huge amount in death duty on the value of the estate (which includes said property), have repaired the property over the generations, run a business from the property since 1836 and Land Reg are still asking us to prove ownership! Now you want utility bills to prove he lived there!
Comment by AdamH posted on
Peter - your solicitor is the one to advise you as to what the issue is re proof if title. Where a title has been handed down each time the reliance tends to be on the oldest conveyance(s) and then probate thereafter as each inheritor dies. I assume that if ‘more’ is being asked for then some details are missing from that chain of events. How long it takes all depends on how long it takes to respond. And masses of information of the type you refer to is rarely the basis of a good title although some if it may help you to check/confirm and find the ‘more’ being asked for.
Comment by Jordan posted on
Hi,
I bought a new build house in 2014. It has since come to light that the boundaries shown on the transfer (TP1) document cover slightly less land that was actually registered with Land Registry. My solicitor who acted for me in purchasing the house says that the more generous Land Registry boundary is the definitive boundary for my ownership. My current solicitor (I'm looking to sell) says that the Land Registry boundary is not definitive.
Which one of them is correct please? Or do you need more details?
Comment by AdamH posted on
Jordan - the title plan will show the general boundaries so is definitive in so far as that is what has been registered. So the real issue is how generous do you mean and where are the physical boundaries as presumably their is a neighbouring plot owner affected by this as well.
Those are issues you need to rely on your legal advisor to assist with as next steps, as presumably you are intending to do something re the extra land, so what impact that has as a result is something you should consider with their help
Comment by Jordan posted on
Adam
The neighbouring area here is between us and the road so the other party would be the developers of the estate.
We are talking about a patch of land that is the width of a normal driveway and about 4 meters in length.
The physical boundary is the kerb that according to the transfer was going to be built half way along the side of my house and mark the end of the driveway and be our boundary. In reality the drive was built 4 meters longer than the transfer suggests and the kerb 4 meters further back. The title boundary from Land Registry has been drawn where the drive and kerb actually meet but this gives us more land than the TP1 suggests.
We are thinking about building on this land but nobody seems to be able to tell us definitively if it is ours or not.
Comment by AdamH posted on
Jordan - many thanks but there is no definitive answer to that single Q in such circumstances as it’s tied to what you want to do with the land.
On the one hand you could say you own it because we’ve registered it to you. But if the developer came along and said we’d got it wrong or ‘get off our land’ then you may not be the legal owner.
So the real Q is we know we don’t own it based on the TP1 but they’ve registered it to us. So if we build on it what happens next if the developer says it’s theirs?
And you’d need to add into that mix how long you’ve been there and/or how long you stay after building on it as that could impact too.
So I’d suggest speaking to your solicitor as to what your legal options are, what the developer’s are and what risks are involved depending on what your options are should you build, highlight the mistake or otherwise
Comment by Jordan posted on
Thanks Adam, very informative. One more Q. Is there any basis for saying the TP1 boundary is invalid given the builder actually changed the build from the TP1 plan (i.e. moved the kerb amongst other things).
Comment by AdamH posted on
Jordan - that’s a Q for you legal advisor. Whilst what’s on the ground can be relevant registration is based on the estate plan and transfer plan and from what you have posted we registered it wrongly.
The fact that the developer effectively went off plan may impact on the ‘risk’ aspects re next steps but it doesn’t affect the registration as we seem to have included more land than was actually transferred
Comment by Jordan posted on
Thanks Adam. If I were to contact the developer and they were to say (via email or letter) that they have no interest in getting the land registered back to them, would this be sufficient in your view to remove the "risks" or would I need to fill in some documentation with Land Registry?
Comment by AdamH posted on
Jordan - not something we can advise you on I'm afraid. Mitigating the risks is something you/your conveyancer would need to discuss and decide upon. Not us.
And to be honest writing to the landowner and alerting them to the issue may heighten the risk for you and may also invalidate any opportunity of insuring against the risks that may currently exist. You must rely on your legal advice here
Comment by Gary posted on
Hi,
My partner is in the process of selling her house but is worried that there is a real prospect of the sale falling through. A wayleave is marked on a map but there is no supporting documentation to say what it refers to. An insurance company won't provide cover as the risk can't be quantified. We have contacted the solicitor who dealt with the purchase 20 years ago but they say they have no relevant records. Is there anything we can do to resolve this situation if no information about the wayleave can be found anywhere?
Thanks in anticipation!
Comment by AdamH posted on
Gary - not something we can advise you on I'm afraid and very much a Q to ask a legal adviser. I would suggest you do that before researching further, for example contacting the utility company (?), in case that further invalidates any chance of finding a suitable indemnity if one is needed. Very much Qs for a conveyancer to answer
Comment by Gary posted on
Thanks Adam. Those are the sorts of things we have been doing without much success to date. Will keep plugging away and hopefully find what we need.
Comment by Freya posted on
Hi, I have purchased an apartment 2 years ago, and I have checked online that all other 13 out of 14 apartments have their title register ready, even for one of the flats that was sold one year later than mine.
I have called my solicitor a lot of times and the only reply I get is that they will notify me once it is ready.
Please advice as I am very concerned.
Comment by AdamH posted on
Freya - we do have a backlog of some types of work but 2 years is too long. Submit the specific details online and we can check https://help.landregistry.gov.uk/app/contactus_general
Comment by Alistair posted on
Hi
I have made an offer on a flat which has been accepted. The purchase has now been stuck with my solicitor for three months with no sign of progress. I urgently need to get this completed before the end of January.
My solicitor advises that they are trying to obtain some title documents relating to the common parts of the property to prepare a certificate of title which will be given to the mortgage lender to obtain release of the monies, but my mortgage advisor has told me that the mortgage is all sorted out and the bank are just waiting for completion so they can release the funds.
Does the bank really NEED to see these documents? Is my solicitor being overzealous? I feel like I'm in a real pickle about this and I'd be really grateful for some advice from someone who will give me a straight answer.
Comment by AdamH posted on
Alistair - we are not directly involved in the pre-completion issues so very much a Q still for your lender and the solicitor. You'll need to press your solicitor on this to establish why it is being held up when the lender is advising that all is ok
Comment by Alistair posted on
Hi Adam
Thanks for your reply - I really appreciate you taking the time; the process has become pretty miserable and it feels like everyone is blaming everyone else for it getting stuck!
Comment by AdamH posted on
Alistair - very much something to pursue with your solicitor. If you feel that it is stuck then they should have a complaints process you can use to raise your concerns for example
Comment by C posted on
It is incredible, that you buy a home X amount of years ago. You pay it off and you have to chase for deeds to show you own the home. However, if you missed a payment or two, there would have been a huge amount of energy used to either slap on charges or repossess the home. Particularly if your home sale was pre 2003.
Comment by Y Aung posted on
Hi,
I have received this Title AGL484644 from my solicitor on 13 November 2019 after long waiting almost 2 years of my completion as there was issue with my solicitors.
There were also some changes from leasehold to freehold with this Title NGL499284.
I have two questions over my Title.
It is some kind of confusing and I found it a little complicated.
I have already contacted to my solicitors and they couldn’t provide me a clear understanding or probably me being so thick.
I would much appreciate if you can clarify me with these 2 queries please.
1) My purchase is still not updated in sold searches and just curious why it is?
2) *** I purchased a Share of Freehold Ground Floor Flat that includes rear private garden and front driveway.
It is quite straightforward that back garden part that belong to me with only access from my ground floor.
However, there is confusion with front driveway section.
It is obvious that front pathway (right of way) is a share of free access to the property.
But, I just need to make sure that front driveway is entirely belonging to the ground floor only before I make a front driveway application and paying for the groundwork.
I hope you understand my point that I would like to get a confirmation prior to my application in order to avoid any legal challenges later with first floor landlord for that front driveway ownership. (First floor is currently occupied by tenants).
I look forward for your reply and much appreciate for any guides and suggestions.
Kind Regards,
Y.Aung
Comment by AdamH posted on
Y Aung - the registered details will confirm what is registered within each tenure and presumably the leases confirm which land is included/shared etc. The lease will confirm if the front driveway is entirely belonging to the flat and/or whether others have a right to use it for example. We can't interpret the lease for you so very much something to rely on your conveyancer for and/or if in doubt discuss with your fellow freeholder also.
The price paid details would normally be included in the data shared with third party sites. If you think an error has been made then you can report that online https://help.landregistry.gov.uk/app/contactus_changesales/
Comment by Alistair posted on
Will mortgage lenders, as a matter of course, refuse to release monies if title documents cannot be supplied? My house purchase has been held up for several months because my solicitor states they have not been able to adduce the title documents, but:
1) The vendor was able to obtain a mortgage without any difficulties and to the best of my knowledge they did not obtain these documents or encounter this problem; and
2) The mortgage lender has not been contacted by my solicitor yet, so they don't actually know that we don't have this information, and I am relying on my solicitor's advice regarding what he says the lender's position will be rather than the lender's own words.
Would be very grateful for any advice you may have.
Comment by AdamH posted on
Alistair - I'm afraid we can't advise you on such matters and very much something your solicitor is for. All I can add is that in my experience lenders can vary with regards their requirements both between lenders and even with individual lenders and their variety of mortgages for example.
Comment by Kim Parsons posted on
I contacted Santander in regard to my deeds as they had not been sent to me following the completion of my mortgage in Dec 2019. I was told that they were sent to me in Jan 2018 following dematerialisation, however I never received the deeds, I asked them how and by who they were sent so I could look into them not being delivered, they did not give me this information and told me it is no longer necessary for deeds and documentation. I want them for historical reasons
Comment by AdamH posted on
Kim - I'm unsure if your comment is seeking a response but the following may assist if read in conjunction with the general details provided in the original blog article itself. As the article states the original deeds/documents submitted when a property is first registered are returned to the applicant at that time. The register and title plan then become the 'title deeds' hence Santander's final comment.
With each sale/purchase of the property the seller may pass on those original deeds/documents, if they have them, but they don't legally have to and as such may not. So from your perspective if the property was registered several years before your purchase and there had been intervening sales/purchases then it is quite likely that Santander never had the original deeds/documents.
If you check the register for your title it may refer to the date of first registration in brackets at the start of the register. If that date pre dates your own purchase then searching for the original deeds/documents may not bear fruit.
Comment by Kim Parsons posted on
Hi Adam,
Thank you for your reply, the property was first registered in Dec 1994 after I purchased it in Oct 1994 (I have a copy of the Land Registry entry) and the deeds were not returned to me at that time.
I will go back to Santander for further information and let you know how I get on!
Comment by Diana posted on
Hi Adam, I wonder if you can help. We have a house that we bought 20 years ago and we're in the process of selling. There was a lease and a freehold and it turns out that our previous solicitor failed to change the leasehold title at land registry. Now that we have come to sell, we've just found out (20 years on) that the leasehold still remains in the previous owners' names. Our solicitor has advised that If we try and track them down then this is high risk, as this could have repercussions (they may demand money, refuse could be dead with greedy family etc).
We have offered the buyer the option of an indemnity policy to but they have refused.
The most important thing for us is to change the leasehold title as soon as possible. We've tracked down the original solicitor who has admitted liability but no longer has original papers due to the length of time. I believe we can make an application to the land registry with a statement of truth that there are still no guarantees. And also have no idea how long this process can take, since this is a rare scenario. Can you please help?
Comment by AdamH posted on
Diana - there are a variety of ways that a lease can be determined and an application made to close/remove it. Our PG 26 explains the registration requirements https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/leases-determination
The key factor here is what has happened to the lease/leaseholder. Your original solicitor must have ascertained such details at the time of your purchase but those details are now 'lost'. So it reads as if you are starting again and the only option is to approach matters based on your own knowledge and the fact that presumably, the leaseholder has not been in touch, is not occupying the property etc etc but you must rely on your legal advice here.
As far as how long it takes to then register? That all depends on the facts presented and what checks we then make. Best case scenario is a few weeks between receipt and consideration but the devil will be in the detail
Comment by Peter J. King posted on
Lloyds Bank, on completion of our mortgage,wrote to us to confirm this, but added:
"Since 13th October 2003 properties have been electronically registered at the Land registry, which means there are no paper title deeds."
This seems to be in tension with what's said above:
"It’s a good idea to keep the original deeds though, as they can hold extra information, about legal boundaries or who the previous owner was, for example."
The mortgage was taken out before 2003, and there were paper deeds; should we chase Lloyds for their return?
Comment by AdamH posted on
Peter J King - titles have been electronically registered for a number of years prior to 2003. What Lloyds appear to be referring to is the fact that we stopped producing a Land (unmortgaged) or Charge (mortgaged) certificate. These were issued by us and in effect were a copy of the registered details we held. Many, if they had one, referred to these as the paper deeds. So Lloyds would not have a Charge Certificate for your title.
Whether they ever held the original deeds/documents will very much depend on when the property was first registered and when you bought it. If for example you bought it and then registered the title for the first time with the Lloyds mortgage then they may well have held them.
However as they have responded in the way they have I would suggest, based solely on experience, that they do not have them so trying to pursue them might be a fruitless task.
Comment by Peter J. King posted on
Thanks for your response. I may be misremembering, but I thought that the deeds had gone to Lloyds at the beginning of the mortgage; I'll need to go back and see if it's mentioned in the correspondence. (Our experience with Lloyds has been such that our first response to anything they say is scepticism...)
Comment by AdamH posted on
Peter - do you have the title number? I may be able to offer some advice based on the register timelines and experience around such things.
Comment by Peter J. King posted on
Many thanks -- but I have a confession. My partner today discovered a large batch of documents sent to us by Lloyds in 2005, which includes the Title Deeds (in amongst much else, going back to the original sale of the plot of land in the 1930s)... It seems that both we and they had forgotten this. Sorry to take up your time, and thanks for your helpfulness.
Comment by AdamH posted on
Peter - no need to apologise at all. Most lenders will have done that at some stage after 2003 but much depends on what they had on file to start with. Glad you found them and I hope they are of interest and/or provide the detail you are after.
Comment by Keir posted on
I'm remortgaging my property and transferring to another bank. I'm being asked to supply a signed HMLR authority form from the conveyancing company. Where would I find this?
Comment by AdamH posted on
Keir - it reads as if it is something that your conveyancer would provide as it's 'from the conveyancing company', I have not heard of something like this before so I would suggest asking them to confirm and provide more details as to what it is and where you can get it
Comment by Theda Bara posted on
I'm asking for a friend; Her neighbour has managed to register an obviously fraudulent easement against her property... the title plan has been altered to show a water pipe across her land. I just wonder what she can do to rectify the situation?
Comment by AdamH posted on
Theda - I'd suggest she contact us with the details so we can check and advise as appropriate https://help.landregistry.gov.uk/app/contactus_general
She may also wish to seek legal advice if she believes the neighbour has acted fraudulently/illegally
Comment by Theda Bara posted on
Thanks Adam... I believe she needs to contact RoS in that case as she is in Scotland. She is taking advice. But in general, I would think that the deed (to access water from a well) is invalid as it is an old one from 1900 which was conditional on there being a Minister in residence, so was not intended to run with the land in perpetuity, and the land has been divided and sold off over the years.
Comment by Mr J.M. Holmes posted on
I purchased a business premises in 1985, however the solicitor which was holding the title deeds has destroyed them, saying they are not needed as it is registered with the Land Registry. However, those deeds included the conveyance showing the purhase price I paid in 1985. When I checked the Land Registry title plan, it showed an incorrect owner for the property. I contacted the Land Registry, and they have since corrected it and it does now show me as the owner of the property, but it states "Price Stated: Not available". I am selling the property now and have no way of showing how much I paid for it in 1985, what can I do. I will need some evidence of purchase price for tax purposes following the sale.
Comment by AdamH posted on
Mr Holmes - you'd need to contact us with the specifics to see what details we have on file that might assist. https://help.landregistry.gov.uk/app/contactus_general
Comment by Lindastansmore@gmail.com posted on
Sorry I don’t know if I’m in the right place here to ask a question.
In the 1980’s my ex and I purchased our leasehold house. We split about 15 years ago and I took on the mortgage, bought him out and carried on living here with our son. I now want to sell but have been told he may still be on the deeds. Nobody had mentioned deeds to me before and I know nothing about them. I’m now worried I can’t sell the house which is just been put up for sale.
Can anybody help please as I’m worried sick about all this.
Thank you
Comment by AdamH posted on
Linda - start by checking how it’s registered. If it’s in your joint names still then you’ll need to resolve that so speak to your conveyancer for clarity
https://www.gov.uk/search-property-information-land-registry
Comment by Linda posted on
So whoever I choose as my conveyancer will be able to find this out for me?
Comment by AdamH posted on
Linda - it’s one if the first things they would do
Comment by Melanie Dayal posted on
Hello there.
I am trying to find out the status of my deeds of variation. I believe our solicitor has submitted possibly only yesterday but I would like to know if a request was submitted to expedite them. The post code is BR2 0LW. I am in the process of selling my flat and as the deeds are for all 6 flats and it is share of freehold, this is affecting our exchange date. Our buyer needs the completion of the registration for the Deed of Variation before they will set a date for completion.
Many thanks for any information you could provide.
Mel
Comment by AdamH posted on
Melanie - nothing submitted as yet. When your solicitor has submitted it then they will need to supply documentary evidence to confirm the onward purchase and also ask us to expedite their application. Please speak to your solicitor to arrange and confirm. They can then track the application's progress for you and keep you informed re progress
Comment by Melanie Dayal posted on
Dear Adam.
Thank you for your reply.
I've chased my solicitor and asked him to submit a copy of the contract for our sale as evidence.
Many thank
Mel
Comment by Fairer posted on
I'm trying to get a copy of a deed of variation for my property. How do I go about getting this? Thanks in advance!
Comment by AdamH posted on
Fairer - if it's referred to as being 'filed' on the register then you can apply by post for a copy https://www.gov.uk/get-information-about-property-and-land/copies-of-deeds
Comment by Gursharan posted on
Hello,
I have recently purchased my Right To Buy Maisonette Flat. In short, I have had a very difficult time with the solicitor I chose for the conveyancing. He completed all the work, but only after I kept chasing him every other week for months. As a 70 year old woman, it left me mentally drained. Even the solicitor for the housing association was left unimpressed with my solicitor at the end of the process. So..... I am still currently chasing my solicitor to submit First Registration for my home. He has stated that it has been submitted to HM Land Registry a few days aho. Can you please check that this application is now in process? My Post code is TW4 7PR. Also, my solicitor has stated that he has sent an online copy of the original Title Deeds - but he cannot return the Title Deeds to me until Registration is complete, is this correct?
Many Thanks
Gursharan
Comment by AdamH posted on
Gursharan - if he has submitted an application then he should have a title number and case reference to quote. The post code covers a number of properties but nothing leaps out to refer to a transfer to you.
Most applications by a solicitor will be sent electronically. They will I suspect retain the original deeds just in case we ask for anything else to be lodged
I should stress that this type of application is likely to wait several weeks/months before it is considered but your solicitor should be able to keep you informed
Comment by Gursharan posted on
Hi AdamH,
Thank you for your reply. I have retrieved the Title Number and the Case Reference from my Solicitor. Do I post the Numbers here on the public forum or send them to an e-mail to check the progress of my first registration of property that I recently purchased.
Thanks
Gursharan
Comment by AdamH posted on
Gursharan - your solicitor could have checked progress for you? If you want to check then use our online guidance https://www.gov.uk/guidance/coronavirus-covid-19-impact-on-hm-land-registrys-services#contacting-hm-land-registry
Comment by Brian Leahy posted on
17.3.2020 I wanted to look at who owned the land on which my property is built and the previous owners of this property so I asked my solicitor for the deeds to my property. They replied that they no longer kept such items as they were to bulky. Then looking through my filing cabinet I came to a file marked with the name of my solicitor dated 21st October 2002 saying, "Your deeds are safely stored in the Strong Room.” The solicitor claims that all they have is a computer print out of the title to my property. I wonder if they have lost them and if there is any chance that Land Registry has a copy. The replies from my solicitor appear evasive.
Comment by AdamH posted on
Brian - much may depend on when the property was first registered and what 'deeds' were handed to you when you bought. As the blog article explains we won;t have any original deeds and we don;t keep a deeds/ownership history. What we do keep is a land register that keeps a record of ownership changes and more after a property is first registered
Comment by Brian Leahy posted on
As a final mark of desperation yesterday I sent my solicitor an Email to my solicitor which said;
"I was, and still am, looking for the original deeds showing the owner of the land our property is built on and the details of those who have occupied it ever since."
Within minutes my solicitor replied, "I have that pre-registered information with the computer copy deeds so they are here!"
Now, I am a person of a generous disposition so my immediate thought was, “perhaps because he is a solicitor he interpreted my statement that, “I was looking for the deeds of our property” as, “I was looking for the title of ownership of the property.”
My generosity of disposition did not last long because then I remembered that I had sent him a scan of a letter from his firm dated 2002 by Email saying, "Your deeds are safely stored in the strong room" I told him in that Email that as far as I was concerned those words referred to a set of paper documents and not a computerised deed of title which would not be stored in the strong room but on a computer hard drive."
My conclusion is that either he simply had not institute a search of the strong room or he is not very bright or he has a strange sense of humour.
As it is because we are complying with official suggestions my wife and I have placed ourselves in isolation so we will not be able to lay our hands on those documents until the Corona virus has gone hopefully not taking us with it but if it takes me I shall be back to haunt that solicitor.
Comment by AdamH posted on
Brian - understood and I hope that you both remain healthy and are able to locate the original deeds.
Comment by Jonny D posted on
Hi,
I purchased my house in June last year. At the time the attached house was empty. The fence line is quite clearly in what would appear to be the neighbours garden. However, on reading my deeds it states some land was bought from the neighbour in the 90’s so the old owner of my house could extend his garden. Now, a new owner has moved in next door and is claiming the fence should be back in the middle of the houses. How do I find the document showing the land was purchased by the former owner of my house? They didn’t come with my deeds. Also will such a document say the new boundary line? E.g “number 53 has extended the boundary fence 1.5 metres into number 55 at a cost of £2000”.
Comment by AdamH posted on
Jonny D - I'd suggest checking to see if the purchased land is registered or not and if it is then to whom. https://www.gov.uk/get-information-about-property-and-land
If the land is not registered or it's registered to next door then we won't have any details of the purchase you refer to.
Comment by Dave Roberts posted on
My neighbour is developing the site adjacent to my house. It was formerly a bungalow and he has constructed a pair of semi-detached houses on the site. Both properties are resisted with Land Registry. He has erected a fence which is not on the boundary shown on Land Registry plans. I am broadly in agreement with this and he has assured me that before the new properties are sold a submission will be made to Land Registry to register the new boundary between us. My question is whether the registration of the new boundary with Land Registry is sufficient to establish legal ownership or should my title deeds be amended also?
Comment by AdamH posted on
Dave - I’m unsure how exactly he would register a new boundary between the two of you without agreeing that with you and registering that agreement against both/all title. Have a read of the blog article and linked guidance. You can then discuss it further and agree a way forward
Comment by Dave Roberts posted on
Adam - OK thanks. I have only recently registered my property with Land Registry and I possess the original Title Deeds which will not show the revised boundary, although the agreed boundary will be registered through due process with Land Registry. May I assume therefore, that the paper Title Deeds do not need to be amended because digital records of legal title are now held in Land Registry?
Comment by AdamH posted on
Dave - that is correct. The land register is now the official record re ownership/extent
Comment by Dave Roberts posted on
Adam - Many thanks
Comment by Julia E posted on
We are selling my dad's house (purchased in 1968) and have a letter where the solicitor has signed for the 'title deeds and documents' in 1989 (when the mortgage was paid off). I wanted to see what documents he has, to find out about right of way to the back alleyway and like Brian he states the only document he has is the online version of the title. I'm filing a complaint with the Ombudsman and I think they have thrown the documents away. I truly believe this has to do with these indeminity policies they like to try and sell.
I am really disappointed as I want to assure the new owner what rights they have about the alleyway. The solicitor just says they don't need any paperwork apart from the online title plan. Which is not correct.
Comment by lp82533 posted on
Apologies if this has been asked and answered. We need to sell my mothers property to pay for nursing home fees and we have registered power of attorney for property and wealth.
The home is 60 years old and is not registered with the Land Registry, we have the deeds stored at the solicitors. An estate agent advised me that registering the property with the Land Registry will absolutely fall to us as Sellers. Is this correct and do we need to go ahead and get the property registered prior to putting on the market.
Comment by AdamH posted on
lp82533 - I’m unsure what the EA means by that. My experience suggests that you are very likely to have difficulties in completing a sale before it’s registered. Many buyers, or specifically lenders/conveyancers, will view it as a greater risk than if it had been registered already.
I should stress that having POA would not allow you to register in your names so it would still be registered in your Mother’s name. POA can give you powers to act but it does not make you the legal owner.
Comment by lp82533 posted on
Thanks for your reply, I understand about the POA.
If you were in my shoes so to speak would you go ahead and register the property in my mothers name with the Land Registry now before we try to put it on the market?
Comment by AdamH posted on
Lp82533 - yes. Finding a buyer may take some time and whilst that might be quick if the right/reduced price there is a good chance that you’ll get so far before they hit the brakes as it’s unregistered and you are the seller under a POA.
But please don’t go solely on my advice as your own conveyancer will have experience also so please also rely on them
An EA will have experience also but they don’t do the conveyancing or act for the buyer
Comment by Dave posted on
Hi could somebody swindle me out of ownership of a property if I have the title deeds . and how do I check if I still have ownership .
Comment by AdamH posted on
Dave - if the property is unregistered then the original (title) deeds and documents are important. If it’s registered then they no longer prove ownership.
Possession of deeds never proved ownership in its own. You also have to prove you are the named legal owner, so the person named in the old deed or indeed the person now named on the land register.
So there’s no one thing that stops you from being ‘swindled’ but being registered removes the risk of someone stealing the only proof of title you have when unregistered.
If you want to check if the property is registered then see our online guidance https://www.gov.uk/get-information-about-property-and-land
Comment by Linda posted on
I have purchased the copy of the register for my property. Many years ago my solicitor had said there was a covenant on the property prohibiting keeping hoofed animals. There is nothing mentioned about this on the register. Where would i find this information? I assumed the register would have more information such as when the house was built, previous owners etc. Am i missing something? Are the deeds different to the register?
Comment by AdamH posted on
Linda - if there’s no mention of covenants on the register then there are none registered.
If there are and the deed is ‘filed’ you can apply by post for a copy https://www.gov.uk/get-information-about-property-and-land/copies-of-deeds
The register is not an historical record of ownership and it’s a land register so we don’t record when a house is built in the land.
Comment by Bernard posted on
Hi sorry to jump on your thread but applied for my deeds to my property today09/5/20 which i paid off 18 months ago i received them by email but my name and my house info is not on the deeds i e. Saying that i my name owns the house is this normal ??
Comment by AdamH posted on
Bernard - no if you are the owner. The owner would show as the registered proprietor in the B Proprietorship register
Comment by Joanne Whitby posted on
Hi, I'm just filling in OC1 as I need to prove ownership of my house to UK immigration for my husband's spouse visa. I don't have a cheque book and I can't understand how I can pay by direct debit. Any advice is appreciated!
Comment by AdamH posted on
Joanne - there’s no DD option by post so it would be a postal order you need. If that’s tricky then I’d suggest asking someone with a chequebook to pay
Comment by J Whitby posted on
Thank you for clearing that up, I thought I had got that wrong but just wanted to confirm!
best wishes
Comment by Wendy posted on
Hi. I am trying to find out how I transfer my late mother's leasehold flat as according to her will. Probate has been granted but the number of possible forms I would need to complete is very confusing. Any signposting would be great.
Comment by AdamH posted on
Wendy - have you used our assisted guidance? https://help.landregistry.gov.uk/app/contactus_bereavement?utm_medium=GOV.UK&utm_source=govuk&utm_campaign=death_contact_page_to_guide&utm_content=web_page_
Comment by Wendy posted on
I haven’t Adam but I will try that thank you
Comment by Julia Baker posted on
If land is acquired by adverse possession, do the Land Registry record evidence of the boundary set (measurement/photos/descriptions) for registration? We have purchased land next to a plot gained by adverse possession and the owner is claiming their boundary is actually outside of the existing fence even though it has never been defined by them. Any help greatly appreciated - thank you.
Comment by AdamH posted on
Julia - we do keep a variety of records from such applications. If you are looking for specifics then please use our contact form https://www.gov.uk/guidance/coronavirus-covid-19-impact-on-hm-land-registrys-services#contacting-hm-land-registry
Comment by Marie-Louise Morley posted on
hello I hope you don't mind me asking a question : if I want to change the name of my house, how does this impact my house deeds? Do I need to get them changed and how do I do this?
Comment by AdamH posted on
Marie-Louise - you’d need to confirm any change with your local authority. Once confirmed you’d send us a copy of that letter of confirmation along with an application to update the register
https://www.gov.uk/registering-land-or-property-with-land-registry/update-or-correct-the-register
Comment by Marie-Louise Morley posted on
I know about informing my local authority who will advise all utilitie etc but in terms of informing you guys with an application to update register, is there a fee involved and do I need to involve or advise anyone else? I am just trying to understand all costs and logistics involved. Thank you for your speedy response.
Comment by AdamH posted on
Marie-Louise - there’s no fee. You’d presumably advise anyone who you needed to know your correct contact details
Comment by Marie-Louise Morley posted on
thank you for this service. It is amazing!
Comment by PeterM posted on
My property was registered in 1981, but I can't trace ever having received the original transfer.
I understand that after registration the Land Registry would have sent the original transfer back to the person from whom they received it. If i write to the Registry with all the details, will they be able to tell me who that was?
Comment by AdamH posted on
PeterM - yes
Comment by Mike posted on
Hi Everyone,
I own my home outright but never received deeds when I paid the mortgage off 3 years ago.
Do I need them at any time as proof of ownership or not?
Thanks
Mike
Comment by AdamH posted on
Mike - not if it’s registered, then no. The blog article explains this for you
Comment by Terri posted on
Me and my Husband have recently remortgage with a new lender and the solicitor who has been acting on our behalf (who seems to be doing everything they possibly can to bump our bill up) has found that the deeds are not in my husbands full name but only part of his name and wants us to pay and have the name changed, is this necessary ?
Thanks
Terri
Comment by AdamH posted on
Terri - most lender’s will want a ‘perfect’ name match and legally it’s what’s needed as any discrepancy could suggest it’s not one and the same person.
If there’s a name missing then you can apply to update the register and include a copy of driving licence or passport (name page).
https://www.gov.uk/registering-land-or-property-with-land-registry/update-or-correct-the-register
Comment by DenisC posted on
When a property is first registered, are the documents used for the purpose kept at the Registry,
1. can I access copies of them?
2. can this access be online/email?
3. do I have to go through a solicitor?
Comment by AdamH posted on
Denise - the blog article explains how we don’t keep the deeds. It also explains how you can check the register and apply for specific deeds (if any)
Comment by Simon Curtis posted on
I am trying to find out who is responsible for a boundary fence, my neighbour says that information on their Deeds details their responsibility for boundary fencing. I have looked at my title plan, but no information is detailed there. Would this information be detailed in the Deeds for my property?
Comment by AdamH posted on
Simon - not always as many titles don’t refer. See https://hmlandregistry.blog.gov.uk/2018/02/27/drawing-the-line-on-boundaries/#comments
Comment by Guy Mayhew posted on
If the current name on the land registry deeds of a house is that of a person deceased 40 years ago and his daughter inherited the house but is now elderly and living in the USA. Can another relative legally let the property or would it be technically unauthorised?
If a house is to be let out does the legal owner's name have to be on the deeds first?
Comment by AdamH posted on
Guy - you need legal advice although much may depend on the tenant as to what they need to feel comfortable with paying rent to someone whose not the registered owner
Comment by Guy Mayhew posted on
Many thanks Adam.
Comment by David Dreebin posted on
Hello again, Adam.
I have just been looking at the Land Registry's official website on how to get official copies of documents and registration.
Have been given this website: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/official-copies-of-documents-registration-oc2
Which link in that document to I click on to actually request a copy of my lease? I may not need the *entire* title deeds but just a copy of the lease, in order to extend same. Also, it said something about writing to your Gloucester office. Can it not be requested online, if I make the appropriate payment, for reasons of speed as post by Royal Mail will be really slow both ways during this pandemic?
Comment by AdamH posted on
David - you’d need this link and it’s postal only for you using form OC2 and £7 fee. Gloucester is the correct address. https://www.gov.uk/get-information-about-property-and-land/copies-of-deeds
Comment by Steph posted on
I inherited my late father's share of a piece of land he had with his friends. I've done a title search and a SIM search and my father's solicitor did a search 5 years ago and the piece of land can't be found as registered. BUT one of his friends swears it is registered but in 3 peoples names, as apparently you can only register 3 names. The conveyance only has 3 names also. This friend has produced a letter from his solicitor from 2011 when he was registering his house that says "the search revealed an entry which refers to restrictive covenants contained in a deed made on (date) which relates to 7073square meters of land in (town). The deed was made between (seller) and (buyers). This land is near a railway line so presume it is a separate bit of land?"
Their land is old railway sidings so assume that is what solicitor is relating to? Does this sound like the land is registered and they just can't find it or nothing to do with the Land Registry? I'm spending money on searches near the land which doesn't relate to it!!! It's driving me nuts and so is the friend who says it is registered!!
Comment by AdamH posted on
Steph - no and I’d suggest you do a SIM to confirm. The online service will only confirm information for registered land
https://www.gov.uk/get-information-about-property-and-land/search-the-index-map
Comment by Steph posted on
I've done a SIM and nothing was found but he insists it is registered and won't take no for an answer!!
Comment by AdamH posted on
Steph - if the SIM says not then it’s not registered.
Comment by Steph posted on
Fabulous, thank you for clarifying!
Comment by Arvind posted on
We had given our house deeds to the Natwest Bank as security for our business borrowings in 1990 and have the letter from them stating that the bank holds these original deeds. Now, in 2020 we have decided to get that security cleared off and the bank has confirmed that it has taken off the charge on the land registry. But, upon asking for our original deeds, the bank's security dept states that they do not have the original deeds and are unable to clarify/state what happened to these documents. They certainly did not return them to us at any time in the last 30 years. What else do I need to do to find these originals, as I know we might have an issue with regards to a fence we share with a neighbour. Can anyone advise?
Comment by AdamH posted on
Arvind - locating the original deeds will be a matter for you/your bank. If you have a boundary issue then whilst they may be of interest/assistance they may not solve it for you anyway - see our PG 40 supplements 3-5 inc https://www.gov.uk/topic/land-registration/practice-guides
Comment by Sue Ellar posted on
Hi, are the downloadable copies you can buy online, correct and up to date version of the actual plans and title register?
I ask because we're currently wondering whether to offer on a repossessed house, which has stood empty for a few years.
The new neighbours claim that they own the entire drive and no access is allowed for this house, ( rendering the property's garage unusable), however the online title page says there is motor vehicle access and a right to stay as long as necessary, but not remain. The plan doesn't show any right of way within the red boundary, only the actual house and garden are red outlined.
I can't afford to get into an expensive legal dispute with the neighbours if I buy, nor is there any parking nearby as it's a narrow lane. I'm very worried that the plan doesn't outline what the title register says and it could cause right of way issues.
So can you tell me if the plans are likely to be up to date and accurate?
Thanks so much.
Comment by AdamH posted on
Sue - the online register and plan will be up to date and the same as if you applied by post. You’d need to read the register and any ‘filed’ deeds as appropriate to understand what rights (if any) are registered
Comment by Mark posted on
I would always recommend that conveyancers do not solely rely on registered title plans. The Land Regsitry title plan only shows the 'general' position of the boundary. The registered title plans tend to follow the lines on the Ordnance Survey map base which shows the physical boundaries on the ground at the time of survey (walls, fences, hedges, ditches, watercourses, etc). These may have changed over the years, so that the current physical boundary to the property may now be in a different place to the original legal boundary. Also the mapping has limitations as to accuracy and generalisation, and presume a certain level of map reading skill e.g the significance of a solid line and a pecked line. Hence it is important for to explore the root of title, especially the original conveyance history, (which for older properties may extend over 100s of years), to establish the legal boundary of a property.
Comment by Glenn posted on
Good morning,
I'm trying to sell a property which was owned by my late father. The land includes a section which originally belonged to the next door property. This was purchased sometime in the 1980s as part of a potential development project. This fell through and a different plot of land was sold to recoup. As his share of this transaction my father took the section of land in question. This is now a problem as the registry shows all three names of the people involved in the original deal and we can't proceed with the sale whilst this is the case. We have no way of contacting these people (we didn't know them,their business appears to have ceased trading and one of them may be deceased). How would we resolve this?
Comment by AdamH posted on
Glenn - you will need to trace them and if dead identify their executor/beneficiaries as appropriate. Without them you’d need a judge to get involved and that tends to only happen if the individuals are untraceable presumed dead.
My advice would be to get legal advice and then consider using a tracing agency as appropriate
Comment by Glenn posted on
Good evening,
I've looked into this but the costs involved are far too high for me to consider. (Quotes range from £200 - £250 per person traced and the initial trace for the people named on the land registry was only a preliminary process - if we couldn't trace them then we'd need to look at tracing an indeterminate number of people as you said to find the executors) This could run into thousands and simply isn't possible.
Thank you for your response
Glenn
Comment by sam posted on
hi. we have paid our mortgage off 🙂 and were chuffed until we requested our deeds from the building society. They advised us that it was unusual but they didn't have them ,They advised that the solicitors we used back in 1999 didnt send them to them and told me to contact them. I have found out that the solicitors don't exist anymore. Where can i go from here . i am most concerned !
Comment by AdamH posted on
Sam - if you need to pursue the deeds trail then contact the SRA to see which firm took over from the closed one.
Comment by SAM posted on
Thank you Adam, a bit thick but SRA ?
Comment by AdamH posted on
Sam - Solicitors Regulation Authority https://www.sra.org.uk/
Comment by Sam posted on
Hi adam.we have emailed the sra and are waiting for their response .we have also paid for a copy of title plam and title deeds from here but only title plan has been emailed to me.i have emailed them twice stating this but no response .where do i go from here please ?
Comment by AdamH posted on
Sam - the register and title plan are the title deeds so I’m unsure what you applied for and how. There’s no record of an email from you other than one from June last year. So without specific details there’s not much I can advise you on - sorry
Comment by Sam posted on
Only had plan not register
Comment by AdamH posted on
Sam - understood and apologies for not being clearer. By specific I meant what title number for example? And who have you contacted and how? Email, phone, online or some other channel - if so which and what’s the email address, phone number or website url?
Comment by Sam posted on
Hi adam.
I replied back to the email i was sent.i have had the plan with the boundry markings through twice now but thats only thing i have had. I have the deed ref number from the building society submitted that and paid for title registry and title plan.they must have rec email as its come through again today.(just the plan)
Sam
Comment by AdamH posted on
Sam - all understood but I can’t help without the specifics I mentioned
Comment by Cfd morris posted on
Our neighbours deeds have a restrictive covenant where we (his next door neighbour) are they converted ( we are beneficiaries of the convenant).
He is asking to be released form this, but supplying no details. We applied for details of his deeds and covenant form land registry and have received those electronic files. They refer to the restricted covenant but it says the details are “copied filed”
So:
1. Does that means there are no copies of actual details of the covenant held in land registry . The only hard copies are held by the person holding the deeds ( the neighbour).
2. Should we have, in our deeds, the other part of the covenant that was signed by our proceeding deed holder that made the covenant . We have something but always though this covanent was for our property not his as the land map is not clear.
3. If land registry does hold copies of the covenant how do we get hold of them- we thought that was what we had paid for but can we request copies of these filed copies and if so, how
Comment by AdamH posted on
Cfd - it the entry refers to restrictive covenants and the deed as ‘filed’ then that some and you can apply by post for a copy of the filed deed https://www.gov.uk/get-information-about-property-and-land/copies-of-deeds
We don’t register the ‘benefit’ of restrictive covenants so your title would be silent
Comment by Shaun posted on
I've inherited an unregistered house, I was always told the deeds were stored by the Woolwich, now barclays. Barclays say there is no record of storage. There is nowhere else the deeds could be, so we are looking at having the title reconstructed in order to sell.
I have almost 50 years of evidence of possession, the house was built in the 1960's, including original conveyancing docs from 1971 , to mortgage redemption in 1997, plus Bills going back 30+ years. Is it likely we will get absolute title?
Comment by AdamH posted on
Shaun - we can’t tell you that ahead of an actual application. Our Practice Guide 2 section 1 explains our position https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/first-registration-of-title-where-deeds-have-been-lost-or-destroyed
Comment by Vanessa posted on
I've just bought a house built in 1927 and I'm interested in looking at who lived here before (like 'A house through time'). The title deed we have from the conveyancing process has the people we bought off (who lived her 25 years) plus 3 changes of hands in 6 months when the house was first built, so there's nearly 70 years missing. Is the Land Registry likely to hold a list of title deeds for those years between 1927 and 1995?
Comment by AdamH posted on
Vanessa - the only details we may have would be a list of documents submitted when the property was first registered plus a record of each change of ownership thereafter.
I’d suggest using our contact form to ask the question and provide the specific details https://help.landregistry.gov.uk/app/contactus_general
Comment by Vanessa posted on
Thanks very much Adam
Comment by TahirH posted on
Hi Adam,
I have done a search on the website and it is showing a title register and a title plan which i have then purchased. Would this mean that Land Registry may hold a scanned copy of the deeds and what is the OC2 form for?
Can you advise what to enter in box 7 if i wanted official copies of the deeds? Also, how would i pay if i do not have a cheque book?
Thank you
Comment by AdamH posted on
TahirH - no. As explained in the blog article we don’t retain the original deeds/documents. Nor do we scan them. Form OC2 is used to apply for copies of any deeds referred to as being ‘filed’ on the register. Or for copies of the application form and list of documents submitted when the title was created and/or forms and documents submitted to update the register with later applications
So if the register refers to a filed deed and you wanted a copy then you’d complete box 7 with the entry/title details.
If you don’t have a chequebook then you would pay by postal order. Or ask a friend or family member with a chequebook to pay.
Comment by Kirstine Smith posted on
What information do you get when you obtain your deeds? I am trying to find out who is responsible for a fence but nothing is showing on the title plan - just the boundary of the property. Is it worth getting the deeds as well?
Comment by AdamH posted on
Kirstine - try this blog as well for some thoughts https://hmlandregistry.blog.gov.uk/2018/02/27/drawing-the-line-on-boundaries/
The registered title and any deeds referred to as having covenants and ‘filed’ may help. But so too can confirming there’s nothing on either title as it reaffirms that decid8ng on such th8ngs can often come down to what you and the neighbour(s) want/agree to
Comment by Linda Shepherd posted on
We purchased our house in 2004 and now have a covenant issue over flooding/ drains with our management company. We purchased our house outright without mortgage and were only given our title deeds in the form of a photocopy. How can we obtain the original?
Comment by AdamH posted on
Linda - very unlikely that there are any originals so if the covenants are referred to in deed referred to on the register as ‘filed’ then it’s that scanned copy you would be relying on
https://www.gov.uk/get-information-about-property-and-land/copies-of-deeds
Comment by Norma posted on
My husband believed he had paid PPI unknowingly and so claimed via Santander. He contacted Santander today and was informed he had taken out a mortgage with them in 1993. This is incorrect as the mortgage he had taken out was in 1970 with the Abbey National and had long been paid.
We are both in our late seventies and this is causing us considerable stress. Where do we go from here?
Norma L
Comment by AdamH posted on
Norma - Santander bought Abbey National so they are in effect one and the same. You’ll need to resolve this through Santander with details of your original mortgage account number and record of payments. If you paid the mortgage off then any evidence to confirm that received from Abbey National should assist.
As you now have a point of contact at Santander I would suggest asking them how you should proceed and through which department - press them for direction to a solution as I assume the mortgage is still registered against the property title
Comment by Norma posted on
Will do. Many thanks for your prompt reply Adam.
Norma
Comment by Lisa Dakin posted on
Hi there
I moved house back in April. Cash purchase. I still don't have a copy of the title deed. Is this because of Covid? Is there a backlog?
Could I get an idea of when I can expect to receive it please.
Comment by AdamH posted on
Lisa - most likely yes. https://www.gov.uk/guidance/coronavirus-covid-19-impact-on-hm-land-registrys-services#impact-on-our-services
If you used a conveyancer then ask them when it was submitted and if there are any issues other than the HMLR delay. If there aren’t and it’s still waiting to be processed then your purchase is safe and ownership secured and it’s a case of bearing with us still for it to be registered
Comment by Lisa Dakin posted on
Thanks for your swift reply Adam. I will do.
Comment by AdamH posted on
Lisa - ask them for the title number/HMLR reference. If they don’t reassure you let me have them and I’ll check our end
Comment by Geoffe posted on
Does anybody know what this marking on a Title Plan denotes. It looks like and S with a line through it and is on a border between two pieces of land. It is also on the road side verge and the piece of land next to it. ?
Comment by AdamH posted on
Geoffe- S shaped markings are generally used by Ordnance Survey and referred to as ‘braces’. Used to combine areas together for survey purposes. They are not HMLR markings
Comment by Sharon Golding posted on
Sharon
Hi there
I was hoping you could give me some advice on an issue with a leasehold property I am currently purchasing. We are just on the verge of exchanging however I have now been told there is a second lease registered to the property title. I was wondering how this is possible. Solicitors think its a mistake and have asked land registry to have the second lease removed however unfortunately we are not getting any replies.
This is holding up the exchange of contracts and we need to move asap!
Would you be able to advise how I can resolve this matter quickly.
Thanks
Comment by AdamH posted on
Sharon - if they’ve applied to remove it then they need to request expedition also https://www.gov.uk/guidance/coronavirus-covid-19-impact-on-hm-land-registrys-services#expedite-an-application
Comment by Sharon Golding posted on
Thanks for the advice Adam I will speak to the solicitor.
Comment by Liz B posted on
Hi - I wonder if you can help.
Would a convenant which was added years after a house was build also be held on the Land Registry system?
If not, do you have any suggestions how I can find the details?
Details:
We're objecting to a planning application for a house which backs on to our road (we are in a quiet cul de sac). The plan is to replace said house which currently doesn't have rear access to our road, with 8 new flats (18 bedrooms in total), parking for 9 cars and vehicular access via our road in a place where it isn't safe (narrow road, very close to a tight corner).
Our road was built in the 1970s using land purchased from the back gardens of the houses that back onto our road, and a neighbour believes that there was a convenant at that time which specifically prevented those houses from having vehicle access to our road via our back gardens.
If we could find the covenant and mention that in our objection petition, it might help
Thanks very much
liz
Comment by AdamH posted on
Liz B - you’d need to look at the register(s) for the land you believe to be bound by any covenants. So from what you have stated I assume that means the land they intend to develop.
The wider issue, and something I’d recommend seeking legal advice on, is IF such a covenant exists then which land has the benefit and is then best placed to enforce it. That tends to be the tricky part as a covenant can’t just be enforced by anyone although it can sometimes be influential depending on how people view it. In my experience for example the planning considerations wouldn’t consider it so something to also check with them
Comment by Jill Britton posted on
Hi there
I have a drawing attached to my lease which differs Slightly from the drawing on the title plan Held at the Land Registry in terms of a boundary line.
Can you tell me which one will be the official one that we should rely on legally please?
Many thanks
Comment by AdamH posted on
Jill - both as we register the general boundaries and the lease may offer more details as a result. If you have doubts over the registered extent then I’d suggest querying it https://www.gov.uk/guidance/coronavirus-covid-19-impact-on-hm-land-registrys-services#contacting-hm-land-registry
But if it’s a slight difference then it may not be an issue.
Comment by Andrew Buckley posted on
I bought my house several years ago from the council through a buy back scheme.
Now i am trying to find the original deeds as I am having a dispute with one neighbour regarding the fence.
My other neighbour showed me his deeds which show he controls the fence on both his sides (marked with a T) Don't buy into this left hand right hand good side of the fence who looks after it.
Brings me to my concern I have contacted Land registry the bank Nationwide and the solicitor who was Nationwide's recommendation who is no longer trading but merged with a larger company and all have said they don't have the deeds. LR blames the solicitor the bank blames the LR the solicitor blames the LR and so on.
I've been told deeds are made digital now and sent to land registry to update the new owners title plan and register and then deeds are sent to solicitor to go back to client.
I've been told bank holds them as its still mortgaged property and I get them when its finished.
Im told deeds are no longer important and after 2009 everything went digital and are no longer needed as title plan and register are more important.
Its an absolute joke that something historic can lost or thrown away like rubbish. I'm all for technology but things like this are important.
My house was built in 1947 its a British Iron and Steel Federation House and was built to be temporary accommodation while the rest of the area was rebuilt and was only to last 10 years, 73 years later its still standing and in good shape.
If this was a landmark documents like this wouldn't go missing but because i'm joe bloggs no-one cares.
Comment by AdamH posted on
Andrew - I can see that you’ve contacted us twice re this and your second email, of today’s date, is awaiting a reply.
Your property was registered under its own title in 2015 when you bought it from the Council. The only deed we will have and which is specific to your property is that 2015 deed. There were no prior deeds only relevant to your property.
The Council’s title comprised a number of properties as registered under title SGL285987
There are no ‘original deeds’ and your solicitor, bank and ourselves would refer to the registered title comprising the 2015 deed, the register and title plan as ‘the deeds’. There’s no blame here as all three are available on application to us as we hold them digitally. No ‘original deeds’ prior to 2015 existed re your property so none could be destroyed.
The Council’s title does refer to older deeds but these relate to the much larger ‘estate’ of properties owned by them. They would not refer for example to boundaries between each property.
So whilst I can appreciate your frustrations your search is I’m afraid a fruitless one as there is nothing to find.
The key to resolving the dispute in my experience is to ensure that you each have the registered details and a copy of the respective transfers from the council. Those Transfers were some years apart and may/may not refer to the boundaries and their maintenance
The Transfers will rarely be the deciding factor here as what each subsequent owner has done or agreed to can also impact, especially where a property has been sold and bought a number of times since.
Ultimately any resolution will come from you and your neighbour agreeing a way forward here as whilst the respective Transfers offer some help in understanding what was applied at the time, what you each want to do now is as relevant
Comment by Keith Pugsley posted on
My neighbour, aged 88, has for many years owned some land jointly with his elder brother, which the brothers inherited from their father or grandfather. The land is unregistered and hasn't changed hands for many years. My neighbour has never seen the title documents as these were always handled by his elder brother and a land agent in Somerset where the land is situated. My neighbour has received his share or subsidies paid in respect of the land. His elder brother died recently and his estate is going through probate. My neighbour wishes to gift his interest in the land, whatever that is, to his only son. To do this a deed of gift will have to be executed and my neighbour will have to provide his solicitor with the title deeds, or at least certified copies of them. My neighbour believes the land agent holds the deeds and he has written to him requesting the deeds or sight of them. The land agent is not replying or cooperating with this request. My question is what legal or other action can my neighbour now take to force the land agent to supply him with the deeds or copies of them?
Comment by AdamH posted on
Keith - we don’t deal with such matters so it’s very much legal advice you need here as to what rights you have.
Inheritance does not convey legal ownership. You need a legal deed to do that. So if say A owned land, died and B inherited you’d need probate for A and the named personal rep would then transfer the legal ownership. So a starting point is confirming who actually owned the land and then what happened after that person died re probate
Comment by Keith Pugsley posted on
Yes and thanks for that. The problem is getting sight of deeds and other title documents to land to which we believe we have title but cannot be sure until we see them. We believe the title documents are held by a land agent and he will not cooperate in either providing copies, or sight of the originals, or either confirming or denying that we have title. I suppose it's really a litigation question really. Does anyone out there know what legal action can be taken against a land agent to require him to produce documents we know to be in his possession and we believe to prove our title to land?
Comment by AdamH posted on
Keith - this is a blog, not a forum, so you are very unlikely to get wider comment/advice if the type you are after. The key factor in my experience is proving that you have a legal right to access such information. That will start with probate for the last surviving legal owner. If you don’t have that then it seems likely that litigation is your next option
Comment by Keith Pugsley posted on
Thank you Adam.
Comment by Steven Richards posted on
I dont understand why after it became obligatory to register deeds, it wasnt made compulsory for solicitors firms to register redeemed deeds.
a) Little specialist knowledge by solicitors firms - 'we'll store them for you for safe keeping'....(unless they stop practising or they havent documented where the deeds went).
b) Inflexibility by Land Registry - if you dont have the deeds we wont give you 'Absolute Title'
c) The public lost out as they trusted these institutions at the time, only to find out that in 30 years time problems may occur.
Comment by Lee Vaisey posted on
My partner , paid our right 60% of a home with his parents , they live in the property and we have recently found out they have remortgage. Also looking on land registry his name is not on the deeds (he was told it's because he paid cash for his 60% , can they remortgage without his consent and if his name is not on deeds where does he stand? Ty in advance x
Comment by AdamH posted on
Lee - a legal charge/mortgage is secured against the title by the registered owners. If he has an interest in the property then it’s legal advice he needs. And if his interest is not registered then his involvement/consent would not be needed from a registration perspective
Comment by Harsha posted on
We're in the process of selling our property. We have the original parchment paper "This conveyance..." from 1935. We paid off the mortgage in 1998 and kept these in a safe place and also have the digital MX record. Unfortunately, the digital record doesn't outline the parcel of land that forms the parchment conveyance and our solicitor didn’t check before handing over all the paperwork to us. Sadly the practice is no longer around.
As outlined in the conveyance and outlined in a different colour on the map from the house, the land was used to carry the drains from adjoining properties. We have always parked our cars on this plot of land and maintained this and allowed neighbours access when requested as most have built rear garden sheds/offices.
What is the best most efficient and quick way to resolve this please as don’t want to hold up the chain? Our buyers are getting jittery. The property was named Milber with the title MX143011. We appreciate any input and suggestions.
On the subject…..we know a sweet elderly lady neighbour who was a young woman at the time and she explained that in the day everybody knew each other and that the developers sold off premium land on corners with larger plots to help finance the neighbouring semi-detached houses. Bargain prices…ours was sold for £935 with other’s at £650, but only marginally bigger 3 bed detached. It is always very interesting to try and dig up documents and get accounts of people in the area and how different life was at the time now that libraries are rare and not all older documentation has been archived on the Internet. I came across some document of local life and printed it for her and pictures of the streets back at the time. My local chippie and pubs have some of these as posters and I guess the http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk at Kew
Comment by AdamH posted on
Harsha - it’s not really about the quickest here but what evidence do you have to prove title to the land that either enables you to show a mistake was made in registration or perhaps in the conveyancing.
If you think the conveyancer proves title to the land and it should have been included when the property was registered then make an application to correct the title and lodge the supporting evidence. However if that’s not the case but you are claiming that over time you have become the owner then that’s a different application.
I assume you are using a solicitor to sell so speak to them first as they should be able to look at the evidence and advise on the way forward
Comment by Heather Forrester posted on
My solicitor told me in 2014, when I purchased my current property, that they had sent my bundle of deeds to Land Registry and that all I get back these days is the current 2 or 3 page deed that relates to the current day purchase (which of course includes mention of any historic convenants etc). The article above suggests this is not the case.
I've requested the original bundle from the solicitors firm and they have told me they have requested them from Land Registry and they are on their way out of storage.
Does this make sense to you? Can you help me understand what is going on please?
I own several properties and I have the bundles for all of the others.
Comment by AdamH posted on
Heather - we don’t retain ‘bundles of deeds’ so I’d suggest you wait to see what your solicitor provides/confirms
If you bought an unregistered property in 2014 then we would have returned the submitted deeds and created a digital register as explained in the article
Comment by Heather Forrester posted on
I bought a registered property. If the solicitor produces any paper copies of the deeds, in your opinion, do you think it is safe to assume that it is they who are storing them and not Land Registry?
Comment by AdamH posted on
Heather - if it was registered then the deeds were not needed by us. If the seller had them and handed them over then I’d expect that to be via their own solicitor to your solicitor/you.
In my experience deeds are very rarely handed over in such scenarios by the seller. And if it was registered when they bought as well then it’s even less likely.
Comment by Harsha posted on
Hi Adam - Sadly it is a mistake during the either the registration or conveyancing and as we have the evidence of ownership from 1935 and can physically take the conveyance either to the nearest office (North West London) for them to examine the evidence and amend the records as we guess it can't be done online (or can it?) It is a very valuable document if we're the only ones that have it, then the postal system is out of the question. We didn't want to involve the $olicitors if we can help. We appreciate the speed of your response and look forward to your recommendation.
Comment by AdamH posted on
Harsha - you can’t take it to an office so you’d have to apply online or by post.
My recommendation to consult your solicitor is that they will be able to consider and advise on what may have happened, why and how best to proceed.
However you may feel otherwise and I would suggest you make a scanned copy and use our online contact form to query the matter
https://help.landregistry.gov.uk/app/contactus_general
Or apply for the title to be amended/updated using form AP1 and posting that along with a certified copy of the deed
https://www.gov.uk/registering-land-or-property-with-land-registry/update-or-correct-the-register
Comment by Alison Shaw posted on
Hi, I'm in the process of selling a few of my rental properties. They are all on Land Registry in my name. I've read a lot of the posts above but just want to check what is needed for a sale, as I am being asked for the "deeds". From what I can gather, as long as they are listed on Land Registry, I don't personally need to obtain copies of the original paper deeds (we used several solicitors back in the day, so are unsure who dealt with the purchases). I assume our solicitor requests an official deeds from Land Registry? Thank you... and apologies if this has been answered previously.
Comment by AdamH posted on
Alison - what paper deeds/copies you have and whether you hand them over is a matter between you and the buyer. Most pre-purchase forms will ask the Q but if the property is registered then your understanding is quite correct
Comment by Ashley B posted on
Hello I am waiting to receive the original deeds of a property I am selling, would you be able to tell me how many days it usually takes to receive this document? Many thanks
Comment by AdamH posted on
Ashley B - if you mean you applied for official copies then they are usually processed within 3 days of receipt. So if you add on the post both ways you are looking at a 7 day turnaround in most cases
Comment by Steven Ingram posted on
Hi I’m in desperate need of help. We are trying to sell our house but have been unable to find our title deeds. We are unable to provide documentation showing the leasehold title has been merged with the freehold title and that neither ourselves nor the land registry hold any other documentation in relation to the property. We have contacted Legal and Contingency to request that they provide a quotation for a defective title indemnity policy and await receipt of that from them. However the buyers solicitor won’t accept a covenant document. We have contacted Land Registry and have received certificate ND48913 confirming we are official owners but an indemnity or this does not satisfy them.. Where do we go from here? Please help.
Comment by AdamH posted on
Steven - you need to rely on your legal advice here as this is a matter only they and the buyers can resolve. Whether they accept an indemnity Policy is entirely a matter for them.
If your solicitor as a result needs to try and locate more details re the lease referred to then I’d suggest trying other affected titles e.g. #71 (ND39214). However I say ‘needs to’ reservedly as in my experience too much digging/research may risk the indemnity policy being withdrawn but your solicitor will know far more than I in that regard.
Comment by Steven Ingram posted on
Thank you
Comment by LiamA posted on
Hi AdamH, I found this post by chance and found it very useful.
I am in the process of buying a leasehold flat. There is a Deed of Variation mentioned in the leasehold title and also in the lease extension. However, the seller's solicitor has come back saying that there is no copy of this Deed of Variation at the Land Registry and they have not been able to locate a copy.
The leasehold title clearly says: (under A: property register, notes): the original Lease dated () and Deed of Variation dated () referred to in the above lease were formerly registered under title number ().
It was registered so I am very puzzled as to why it could have not been found? Does Land Registry maintain paper copy of the Deed of Variation? Or could it have been destroyed already (it was back in the 2000s)?
I feel very stuck here as to how to proceed, the only solution without it being found seems to be an indemnity policy.
Any advice is appreciated. Thank you so much!
Comment by AdamH posted on
LiamA - back in the day all copies/originals held by us would have been paper and filed accordingly. I recall that at one point we had over 83 million paper copies and then we began scanning paper files and doing the same for anything new as it came in.
I’m sure you can appreciate that with so many paper files things can go awry every time a file is found, moved, copied, put back etc etc so there will be some, thankfully a very small percentage, that go missing. It reads as if that’s happened here.
You also then need to consider that we are not a deeds repository, even though we had so man6 paper files. And with leasehold tenures responsibility for holding a copy of the lease and/or an6 variation thereof lies with the landlord and tenant. Clearly they can both have the same filing issues albeit not on the same scale of course.
So what’s the solution? Well one is the indemnity you refer to. The other is drawing up a new lease between the current landlord/tenant and surrendering the old one and variation. I imagine most go with the former but something to discuss with conveyancer and landlord
Comment by LiamA posted on
Thanks very much AdamH!
Comment by Briggsy posted on
Hi Adam, we have just paid off our mortgage for a property we moved into in 2013, and the Title documents have now been updated at Land Registry, Title Number ND137651. I am trying to get hold of a copy of the Deeds but there is nothing at the solicitors we used when we bought the house. I’ve downloaded a copy of the Title from the Register but it doesn’t mention the deeds, so am I to assume Land Registry don’t have a digital copy? Any advice appreciated, thanks.
Comment by AdamH posted on
Briggsy - the electronic register and title plan are the ‘deeds’ as explained in the blog article.
When the property was registered in 2004 any original deeds would have gone back to the owner’s solicitor. Unless the 2004 owner passed those on to the next owner and they did the same for you, you won5 have anything else but the register and title plan
Comment by Briggsy posted on
Thanks very much, appreciate prompt response.
Comment by Dan Stevens posted on
Hi,
I'm attempting to establish the value of my house in 1991, when it was valued for Council Tax, and was hoping there may have been a record of it in the deeds, or perhaps the Land Registry has information about historical sale prices.
It was sold around 1986-7 and then not again until 2001, I think, so the earlier sale price would be very useful! Is this something the Land Registry might be able to help with? Or am I better of looking somewhere else?
Thanks
Dan
Comment by AdamH posted on
Dan - if it was registered in 1986-7 then we should have a copy of the Transfer for example so you can apply by post for a copy https://www.gov.uk/get-information-about-property-and-land/copies-of-deeds
Comment by Dan Stevens posted on
Thanks Adam. Would this be better than applying for an historical search? I can't work out what the difference is between this and form HC1.
Comment by AdamH posted on
Dan - HC1 is for a specific edition of the register on a certain date. The price won’t have been on the register so no point in checking. It’s the actual Transfer you need.
Comment by Dan Stevens posted on
Great - that's what I needed to know. One more question, if I may:
on form OC2, should I fill in the second half of section 7? And what should I put down for the nature of the document and the date?
Thanks for your help. Much appreciated.
Comment by AdamH posted on
Dan - yes, you need to provide sufficient details to enable us to identify the document you require
Comment by Ian A Glen posted on
Under our postcode, on Royal Mail Postcode Finder, there are just two properties, both named houses (not numbered).
These addresses have been in use continually by the Post Office, and by the Local Authority for more than 20 years .
However it turns out that there is a mismatch between the names these properties are known as today, and the house names on the Register of Title.
An earlier post by IanFlowers in January 2019 stated that:
"If you decide to apply now you can do this by letter and this should supported by a letter from the parish council / local authority authorising the change together with any other available evidence. This should be sent to HM Land Registry Citizen Centre, PO Box 74, Gloucester GL14 9BB"
That's nice and clear. Both property owners would like this issue resolved. We can certainly get letters from Parish Councillors.
But I have a follow up question, which is what is the nature of that other evidence? Is there any guidance on this? Is it a simple and straightforward process? How long might this process take?
Thanks in advance - Ian
Comment by AdamH posted on
Ian & Glen - it’s the local authority that approves the postal address(es). They do so for electoral roll purposes. They will have a specific department for doing this so it’s they who decide and then notify a Royal Mail. I’m not aware that parish councillors complete such matters but I’m sure they’ll tell you if they don’t.
If you contact the local authority and the postal addresses are X and Y they will confirm. If you want to change them then you’d apply to them and they’d then provide a letter confirming same, if of course they made a change
Comment by Ian A Glen posted on
Once Citizen's Centre has these confirmed addresses from my Local Authority, how long (in this age of COVID) might it take the Citizen's Centre to process them please? (Lenders are often reluctant to lend while there is a mismatch)
Comment by AdamH posted on
Ian A Glen - wait time is around 4/5 weeks before being processed. If it’s urgent, as the mortgage offer is going to expire soon, then you’d need to request expedition after your application has been made https://www.gov.uk/guidance/coronavirus-covid-19-impact-on-hm-land-registrys-services#expedite
Comment by Carol posted on
I inherited the family home when my mother recently passed away. We paid off the equity release mortgage, I received letter of confirmation from Land Registry saying that they have cancelled the entries relating to the mortgage. How do I now put my name on the deeds of the property? The Solicitors have confirmed that they do no have the deeds. Many thanks.
Comment by AdamH posted on
Carol - work through our online Q and As to get the guidance you need
https://help.landregistry.gov.uk/app/contactus_bereavement?utm_medium=GOV.UK&utm_source=govuk&utm_campaign=death_contact_page_to_guide&utm_content=web_page_
That will link you to the forms etc needed. If Qs remain or new ones crop up then post them here and I’ll do my best to help
Comment by Carol Wiseman posted on
Thank you for your help. I will try the link you posted. Regards, Carol.
Comment by John Williams posted on
What a brilliant blog! I've recently found that my deeds contain an error with the number of the adjacent terraced cottage, over which I should have a right of way for fuel delivery and access to the rear of my property. I'm at No. 37 and the conveyance back in 1987 says that the path is at No 39 and it should in fact be No 35! Can this be corrected by a Deed of Confirmation??
Comment by AdamH posted on
John Williams - I’ve not heard of a deed of confirmation in the context of land law or registration.
It’s very rare that a deed of such an age can be corrected now. If the right granted is flawed and/or hasn’t been used then you may need to look at getting a new right granted by #35 or see if you can claim the right. I’d suggest seeking some legal advice to clarify.
Comment by Emily posted on
I need to sell my parents' house as they are both in nursing homes now. I have applied for power of attorney for my father but need to get deputyship for my mother. In order to do this I need the title deeds to the house, which was purchased with a mortgage in the 1960s and is not registered with Land Registry. However I have been unable to find out who the mortgage lender was and I cannot get much further without deputyship - which I can't get without the title deeds! Any advice would be much appreciated!
Comment by AdamH posted on
Emily - experience suggests the deeds are most likely with a bank or solicitor. However they can also be kept at home so you may need to start searching their safety places’ which if they were anything like my parents might not seem obvious at first.
I’d start with a home search for anything relating to the property to see if they interacted with a solicitor or bank. If you can’t find them then I’d speak to a solicitor with regards what your legal options are
Comment by Lynnette Yardley posted on
Hi,
We payed of our mortgage 2017, we have now decided to move closer to family, I sent off my £7 for my title deed in September as I believe you need it to sell your house or prove its yours,not heard anything, your help would be appreciated
Lynnette
Comment by AdamH posted on
Lynnette - start with checking if the cheque was cleared. If it wasn’t we didn’t get the application. But if it was then use our Contact form to submit the specifics re your application so the team can check and reply. https://help.landregistry.gov.uk/app/contactus_general
Comment by Lynnette posted on
Hi Adam, thanks for getting back to me, yes the cheque was cleared, I will do as you have advised, many thanks
Comment by Lynnette posted on
Hi Adam, i did as you suggested but all that came back was what I needed to do about getting our title deeds, which I had done by filling in the form and sending a cheque, or I'm doing something completely wrong, your help once again would be appreciated
Lynnette
Comment by AdamH posted on
Lynnette - just reply to the auto response with the specifics
Comment by Lynnette posted on
Hi Adam, I have tried to use the auto response but it just comes back with error data and contact support, can I clarify that if I Don't have the title deeds its still not a problem with selling along as the house is registered
Comment by AdamH posted on
Lynnette - if the property is registered then not having the original deeds should not be a problem for the buyer. Nice to have but not a requirement.
Comment by Lynnette posted on
Adam, thanks for the reply that has put my mind at rest, and you never know I still might get them as I did pay for them, keep up the good work! You help so many of us once again thank you
Comment by AdamH posted on
Lynnette - what’s the title number or postal address please? It maybe that the form didn’t give us enough details to issue
Comment by Lynnette posted on
Hi Adam, WSX201958
1 pepper drive
RH159UZ, Thank you
Comment by AdamH posted on
Lynnette - many thanks. Unfortunately the team were unable to process your request or respond as no despatch information was on the form. Should they use your name and the property address? If so I can add to the earlier enquiry record and assign to the team to contact you to explain
Comment by Lynnette posted on
That would be brilliant thank you Adam, how silly of me!! Many thanks again for all your help
Comment by AdamH posted on
Lynnette - it can happen so not silly at all. Unfamiliar forms which you use once and never again can be tricky.
Comment by Lynnette posted on
Thank you Adam, my husband has reminded me that the form we filled in will be in his name john Yardley as we were not married at the time we bought the house,don't know if that will make any difference, I have so much appreciation for any dealing with forms all day
Many thanks once again
Comment by AdamH posted on
Lynnette - I have advised colleagues to use the current registered names and postal address. Hopefully you will receive their reply in the coming days.
Comment by Lynnette posted on
Many thanks Adam, very much appreciated
Comment by DaveM posted on
Have a question about missing deeds and property not registered with land registry. By memory mortgage was settled around 1975 mum has dementia but thankfully still living at home at 94, power of attorney is in place so what would the process be to register the property and is this sufficient for selling when needed.
Comment by AdamH posted on
DaveM - if the deeds are missing and it’s unregistered it would be very rare for a buyer to complete without it being registered first.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/first-registration-of-title-where-deeds-have-been-lost-or-destroyed
Comment by Sharon O'Donnell posted on
Hi Adam, I have a case reference K248HQR that my conveyansor has given me, it's relating to the delay in my name being registered to the property I bought on 30th April, my conveyansing company have been terrible with communication and now cannot tell me what the delay is, wondered if you could help.
Regards Sharon
Comment by AdamH posted on
Sharon - the reference relates to an application submitted yesterday. Clearly there has been a delay between purchase and the application being made but the key thing is we now have it.
Your purchase is protected but it will be a few weeks yet before it’s considered by one of our caseworkers. That should not be an issue although I appreciate the ‘lost time’ may be frustrating.
However if there is no urgency such as an onward sale then please bear with us and wait to hear from your conveyancer again.
Comment by Sharon O'Donnell posted on
Thank you for the quick reply Adam, must remember never to use that conveyance again...!!
Comment by Ron Eccles posted on
Thanks Adam. Now have the night off, you must be frazzled.
Comment by Geoffrey Taylor posted on
Title and Deeds were, and probably still are, held (retained) by your mortgage lender, up until you have finally paid your last penny owing to them, this is because, the Title and Deeds belong to the rightful owner of the said property, and the lender is the rightful owner until the mortgage has been satisfied, when that time comes, the mortgagee will approach the borrower to ask if they want their Title and Deeds, and usually charge a small fee, alternatively, if the borrower so wishes, the mortgagee will keep them in 'Deed Store' again for a fee.
Comment by Erik JC JC posted on
I have a problem my title deeds to 11 large properties were stolen. I don't know the addresses of most of the properties but three I do. How do I claim these three houses? they were left to me by my ancestors in 1974
Comment by AdamH posted on
Erik JC JC - see https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/first-registration-of-title-where-deeds-have-been-lost-or-destroyed
Comment by Pat posted on
We have Title Deeds. This has a 1900's stamped Duplicate Lease (parchment) 999 years, states original lease stamped with ... .
We also have the original Lease that is stamped with the stated stamps mentioned on the Duplicate.
The drawings and Contents in the Indenture Plans between the red margins differ. The Original image appears stretched and enlarged and has more square yards of contents than the Duplicate. They are exact in every other way except for the stamps therefore the material, size, historic script are the same. The original has more recent modern unprofessional looking text and digits that corrects the earlier script ( added between the lines of the script) and to the side of the corrections are numerous signatures and dates hand written by a solicitor.
We have had the Duplicate since 2000'ish after purchasing the freehold. We received the Original many years later from the
Bank, after completing the mortgage.
Is it normal practice to have Indenture Plans that differ on a Lease and Duplicate Lease?
Thanks
Comment by AdamH posted on
Pat - you usually have a Lease and a Counterpart which are identical. The landlord ex3cutes one and the tenant the other. They then swap and the tenant registers their lease
An indenture is a deed made between two or more parties, so called from the wavy lines cut at the join of the deed to its counterpart. So they shouldn’t differ re details.
Comment by Pat posted on
Nothing is stating Counterpart. However on the back of the parchment booklet, one states "Duplicate" Lease of a plot of land; the other "Lease of a plot of land". It appears that the coloured stamps is what clarifies the partnership. There are no wavy lines cut anywhere on either document but there are red markings on the front of the Duplicate that could be a code of some sorts, they reflect the margins, I think.
After your reply, I am slightly concerned that the original Indenture Plan is different. Both images on the documents are exactly the same with nearby streets, paths and roads however due to the original being updated to reflect the new square yards the image appears stretched.
Would a future sale cause issues due to this?
Thanks.
Comment by AdamH posted on
Pat - a buyer would rely on the registered details so if the leasehold tenure is registered they’d confirm with us and get a copy of the registered lease.
Comment by Pat posted on
What is the fee for a copy of the registered Lease from HMLR? It might be worth getting to clarify which lease HMLR have registered. Can I order through the online service?
Thanks
Comment by AdamH posted on
Pat - £7 and by post only
Comment by john c posted on
hi just a quick question over our deeds, is it possible to find out who passed on the original deeds to the land registry, i ask this because the solicitors and the last couple of lenders i have spoken to say they all used the digital records from the land registry, ive gone back as far as i can go, as our original lender has ceased trading.
thank you
john
Comment by AdamH posted on
John C - it usually is as we will often have a copy of the application form and list of documents submitted. If you use our contact form to submit the specifics someone can check and advise you how to apply by post for copies https://help.landregistry.gov.uk/app/contactus_general
Comment by john c posted on
Hi Adam thank you for your quick reply, i will have a look at the link.
thank you
john
Comment by Stuart rawcliffe posted on
I'm looking at extending the lease on my property, how do I get a copy of the deeds to my house?
Comment by AdamH posted on
Stuart - see https://www.gov.uk/get-information-about-property-and-land
Comment by Jacqui Thoms posted on
Hello Adam and many thanks for your helpful information here. I am being advised by a solicitor looking to help my husband and I write our Wills and he talks about the need for our property to be "electronically registered for the first time if any Trusts are set up or for probate". We always thought our property was registered with the Land Registry - and have just paid £6 to reassure ourselves and see the extract entry online and print a copy off - but would like to know if what we are looking at is "electronically registered", and if so negates the need for us to do anything else in order for probate to be done when we die.
Also we would like to know what is an 'Official Copy' of the register as the document describes? And do we need one? We're a little confused about what we have in our hands and its usefulness for probate, and if the Land Registry have a different record (perhaps digital or electronic or Official?). As far as we are aware the original paper copy of our Deeds, is held with our previous solicitor. Your advice would be much appreciated. Many thanks.
Comment by AdamH posted on
Jacqui - the online view/download is the same detail as you would get as an official copy. You don’t need either for probate purposes
So if it’s registered then we hold that information electronically. You don’t need to hold anything. The original deeds can still be useful so always good to hang in to them
I suspect the solicitor is referring generically to such matters so IF your property is not registered advising that you consider getting it registered. I suspect it’s not specific advice to you but check with them to be certain.
Comment by Jacqui posted on
Thanks for your speedy reply Adam. So as I understand it the official copy is the same as what we have downloaded, but you pay £7 for each instead of £3 as they are posted paper copies? I think the solicitor is perhaps talking about something to do with changing our ownership from Joint Tenants to Tenants in Common which we would need to do if we decided to take out a Property Protection Trust. Would that change from Joint Tenants to Tenants in Common be something we can do ourselves with the Land Registry and if so what would it cost? Or is it something only solicitor can do for us? Cheers.
Comment by AdamH posted on
Jacqui - correct and the OC is generally only needed if you need to prove ownership, say in a court.
Have a read of the GOV.UK guidance on joint property ownership to see what you can do
https://www.gov.uk/joint-property-ownership
Comment by Jacqui posted on
Excellent! And it doesn't appear there is any charge for us to change to Tenants in Common if we do this form ourselves. Thanks so much.
Comment by Lisa posted on
My sister and I inherited our late mothers property a couple of years ago.
We are both bequeathed this in her Will. We have Grant of Probate too.
But are not yet listed as the property owners of the property.
I am about to buy my first property and obviously do not wish to have to pay Stamp Duty - I was looking forward to saving £2-3k as its my first purchase.
Do I have to pay SD even if my name is not officially on the property Deeds or registered with Land Registry just yet
Comment by AdamH posted on
Lisa - a Q for HMRC and not us I’m afraid
Comment by Tony Jacques posted on
Hi,
Hope someone can help me.
I am in the process of selling my house and the footpath outside my house is not on my title deeds and is not owned by the council, it is owned by the parties that bought he original freehold 60/60 years ago. It is a 2 ft wide footpath that services 6 terraced properties and has never been an issue and of no use to anyone who wanted to build or put anything on it. I own the freehold to my property but it stops at the verge on my grass
My buyers solicitor is refusing an indemnity to cover this issue, can anything more be done to resolve this dispute?
Comment by AdamH posted on
Tony - very much a matter for you/your conveyancer and the buyer/conveyancer to resolve I’m afraid.
Comment by Kim Weight posted on
Understanding a title.
This title is dated 1987, ie pre LRA2002,
The extract has,
Proprietor: A person, not the bank.
Lender(s): None
Section B does not show any restriction relating to a charge in favour of
a bank
Section C only shows …1987…“Notice of deposit of Land Certificate
with ……… bank.
There is no mention of a charge or proprietor in this section.
Are Land Certificates still valid?
Does the Land Certificate mean that there is a charge against the property?
Who owns the property, the person in title or the bank?
Comment by AdamH posted on
Kim - land certificates are no longer valid but the entry protects a charge held by the bank. The B Register Proprietor owns the title but rage was a loan secured with the bank
Comment by Kim posted on
Thanks.
Shouldn't the bank have raised a charge certificate if there was outstanding debt still on the property?
How do I find out what the remaining charge is without contacting bank?
Comment by AdamH posted on
Kim - a notice of intended deposit was a different way of securing a debt. You can’t find out what the remaining charge is without contacting the bank.
Comment by Toby posted on
Hi,
I was hoping for some advice. We have recently paid off the mortgage on our house and waiting for the title deeds to reflect the property is full owned by us. We are also in the process of selling the house and our solicitor need the documents as soon as possible to complete the sale. How long does the process take and is there any way of speeding up the process?
Kind regards,
Tob
Comment by AdamH posted on
Toby - most lenders remove the charge electronically so when they hit send it’s removed in seconds. At present they usually do this within 2/3 weeks of telling you in my experience. Your solicitor can check online for recent activity to confirm